Nick Goellner: Welcome to MakingChips. We believe that manufacturing is challenging. But if you are connected to a community of leaders, you can elevate your skills, solve your problems and grow your business. I'm not your host. I'm an industry marketing guy, the managing director of MakingChips, but my partners, the dynamic and comedic tag team or you're MakingChips co-host Jason Zenger and Jim Carr.
Jim Carr: Thanks, Nick. That was a nice introduction.
Nick Goellner: I know you guys think you're funny.
Jason Zenger: Nice boy. Nice boy.
Jim Carr: Oh, that was really nice Nick. Thank you very much. I appreciate that wholehearted.
Jason Zenger: Now make sure you write us that check for allowing you to introduce the show.
Jim Carr: No, you did that well, and welcome to Episode 186. We're ready to roll here we got a great episode for you.
Nick Goellner: Well, this one's right up my alley. So I'm looking forward to.
Jim Carr: It is. That's why we put a mic in your hand this time and we're going to give you a little bit of autonomy here and drive this episode forward. But before we introduce our guest for the day, we got a couple of things we want to talk about. What are those things? Jason?
Jason Zenger: Well, we're going to be talking about marketing automation. And I'm not going to say that I'm a marketing automation expert. I kind of know what it is. I'm not really doing it very well. But what is it to you in your machining business, Jim?
Jim Carr: Well, first and foremost, I think that manufacturers typically do not know much about marketing automation.
Jason Zenger: We're going to talk about what it is.
Jim Carr: So marketing plus automation together, is automating your marketing, or- [crosstalk 00:01:37].
Nick Goellner: This is good. No this is good.
Jim Carr: ... is so basic and it's good. Marketing Automation is automating your marketing.
Jason Zenger: I think what Jim is trying to say is that when you set up systems in order to have your marketing do what it's supposed to be doing without you interacting with it on a day to day basis.
Jim Carr: 100%.
Nick Goellner: Yeah, one of the things you would repeat and do over and over again, and how can you automate that from a market perspective.
Jim Carr: Yeah. How do you make your customer experience better and not have to participate in every single [crosstalk 00:02:06].
Nick Goellner: What's not-
Jason Zenger: Without human intervention.
Nick Goellner: Yeah.
Jim Carr: It's automated.
Nick Goellner: What it's not is, it's not making a robotic brand. It's not. You don't want to dehumanize your brand, because you're using automation. That's the worst thing you could do with your marketing automation.
Jim Carr: Right. We're going to have the expert talk about it.
Jason Zenger: Well, what do you think?
Jim Carr: Well, I just said what I thought it was. I jumped in there and gave a little bit more of a robust definition and [crosstalk 00:02:27] marketing.
Jason Zenger: No, you talk right over me. And that's normally my role. That's okay. But tell me Jim, let's talk about what great is going on at Carr Machine and Tool.
Jim Carr: Well- [crosstalk 00:02:35]. I've been sharing with the Metal Working Nation for a while now that we've been-
Jason Zenger: Waiting [inaudible 00:02:40].
Jim Carr: ... teed up for a long time for a significant order. And it finally came through last week. And we did a lot of backend work. A lot of strategy before it actually hit.
Jason Zenger: You did a lot of work before that and-
Jim Carr: A lot.
Jason Zenger: ... I'm super excited because that means you're going to be buying a whole bunch of tooling and cutting tools and everything so that makes me happy.
Jim Carr: You should had the purchase order already. They asked me yesterday, if they should send it and I said, do it just let's get it done. Let's move. So yeah, I'm excited about the future of Carr Machine and Tool, especially this year. And where we're going, we're going out. We just booked a sales trip out to the west coast in about five weeks. And we've got some great ... we got a couple customers there. And we're going to line up some great clients out there too. Great.
Jason Zenger: Well, you know I've been implementing a new ERP system. And it's got its challenges.
Jim Carr: It is just challenging.
Jason Zenger: It got its challenges when you go a new ERP system. But that is all about automation as well, because we're putting this integrated system into our company, because we want to automate a lot of what we do. It's a browser based system. It's got CRM and everything that you would want from an ERP system so that we can automate and sell and allow our customers to self service themselves. [crosstalk 00:03:47].
Jim Carr: Let's move quickly. Nick, what is going on at the [Balling 00:03:52] bar, is this an actual bar?
Nick Goellner: It will be soon.
Jim Carr: The Balling bar will be soon?
Nick Goellner: Yeah, we're building the new MakingChips headquarters and it will feature an actual bar called the Balling bar.
Jim Carr: A tapper, Can I request one of those beers?
Nick Goellner: Yeah, a coffee bar, [crosstalk 00:04:03]. Well, you're an owner of the company so whatever you want-
Jim Carr: I was going to say I think the two founders are the ones that could pick the tap.
Nick Goellner: Jim's [inaudible 00:04:09] wine on tap.
Jim Carr: No, but you know what'd be great. We got to add this into the design. We got to have like a wine cellar like a refrigerator like at 55 degrees for your Cabernet, so it comes out perfect.
Nick Goellner: Then you'd bankrupt the company.
Jim Carr: No, I wouldn't.
Nick Goellner: Yeah, because I know how you buy wine.
Jim Carr: Spend all the profits. Anyway, what is new going on at the balling bar.
Nick Goellner: What the balling bar actually is for our audiences is our newsletter. And that's how you can get the latest MakingChips content. So what you'll see in the balling bar is a contribution from what we call our chip in contributors. These are manufacturing leaders who can equip and inspire the rest of the community. The contribution for this week comes from Danny Gonzales of IndustrialSage.
Jim Carr: I know Danny he's a good guy.
Nick Goellner: 10 out of 10 on the niceness scale.
Jason Zenger: 10 out of 10 really? I got to meet this guy.
Jim Carr: [inaudible 00:04:53].
Nick Goellner: Here's why [crosstalk 00:04:54].
Jason Zenger: ... one day.
Nick Goellner: The first chip in that was an actual video game from Danny.
Jim Carr: Nice.
Nick Goellner: The rest of them have been articles.
Jim Carr: Danny good job.
Nick Goellner: And this chip in contribution is about the impact of LinkedIn live, it'll be rolled out this spring.
Jim Carr: I've heard about that.
Nick Goellner: You know Facebook Live, Instagram Live, LinkedIn live is coming soon. We're going to be doing a lot of cool things with LinkedIn live and Danny is going to talk about that in the contribution. You can check that out on MakingChips.com, subscribe to the balling bar.
Jim Carr: You bet.
Nick Goellner: The manufacturing news that you'll find is about what's going on in the industry this summer. It's an article from Pat McGibbon, he's the CKO that's a Chief Knowledge Officer.
Jason Zenger: These fricking acronyms drive me nuts. I've never heard of a CKO before. Is it a real title?
Nick Goellner: I don't know if [crosstalk 00:05:36].
Jason Zenger: Okay, I'm like, oh my god. I've never heard of that one before. But it makes sense, right?
Nick Goellner: He is the Chief Knowledge Officer-
Jason Zenger: Sorry [inaudible 00:05:43] I know.
Nick Goellner: ... at the Association of Manufacturing Technology, AMT. [crosstalk 00:05:47] idea.
Jason Zenger: I may have to come up with C suite title for you, Jim.
Jim Carr: Thank you.
Jason Zenger: And you're going to love it.
Jim Carr: Don't say it now. I want you to really rehearse it in your head before you let it go.
Nick Goellner: Just a couple things from the article that we can discuss. I've heard a little bit about like, Is there a softening now? Are things starting to slow down. And Pat writes in the article, "Most of the members that I've talked to in the past three weeks have asked, when will the market begin to get better? Wow, the market is still growing year over year. And we have skipped right over when will the market begin to contract? To when will it begin to expand again? Perhaps that is what a 19% increase in a single year does to people's psyche. If it isn't a double digit growth rate, then the market is going backwards?" The article goes on to talk about how it's not growing quite as fast as it was last year, but it's still growing and we all need to stop being babies about it and just deal with it, because it's nothing like the 2008 recession, right?
Jason Zenger: It's not even close. No, I mean, we're still in a positive direction. We're still green, we're not red, right?
Nick Goellner: And the article features like the indicators for the business conditions in our segment, manufacturing- go ahead Jason.
Jason Zenger: An actual recession is two quarters of negative growth. So two quarters of decline, I believe that that would be and so we're not going through that decline right now. We certainly haven't had a two quarters in a row.
Jim Carr: Well, I'll tell you what.
Jason Zenger: Because once it takes two quarters, then you really have a bad trend that you're building on top of.
Jim Carr: Fourth quarter 2018 was down. And I believe the first month in the first quarter 2019 was down.
Nick Goellner: Was it down compared to the previous ... because, it could still be up but down from the growth from before. We're talking [crosstalk 00:07:23].
Jason Zenger: I don't know.
Nick Goellner: ... where the GDP contracts.
Jason Zenger: Okay, no, it pulled back.
Jim Carr: The growth pulled back.
Jason Zenger: Yes, exactly.
Jim Carr: There's a difference.
Nick Goellner: Here's what the article says, "Negative year on year change in the growth rate will likely begin in the late second quarter or early third quarter. The last downturn lasted for more than 40 months, but the expectations are that this next downturn will likely be a quarter to a third of the length of the past one.
Jason Zenger: Yeah, I mean, this kind of reminds me of a conversation I had this morning with my five year old son because he was just whining, whining, whining about like, I've got a scratch, my finger hurts. I was like, Look, if you're bleeding, let me know or if something hurts really bad for a long period of time, let me know, but every little scratch you get got to buck up, buddy. I don't want to hear about every single one of them.
Jim Carr: My mom would say like, if you need a reason to cry, I can make that happen. She's a nice lady.
Jason Zenger: Don't give the economy a reason to make you cry.
Nick Goellner: Yeah. And they use some science to come up with this too. There's a couple of indicators manufacturing technology orders continue to show year over year growth or be it at a ever slower rate. And then durable goods, manufacturing business conditions, the indicators signal expansion of key customer sectors, but at a slower pace than recognized in 2018.
Jason Zenger: Nicki gave ... Jim, you and I feed back saying that we drone on and on and on too much, and listeners want to get into the heart of the subject. Instead of letting Nick drone on like he's doing right now, let's get into it. How's that sound?
Nick Goellner: That sounds good. There's one more thing I want to add to that.
Jason Zenger: Oh gosh. There's always one more thing.
Nick Goellner: Yeah, there's one more thing. Jason and I've had relationships with some economists from the Federal Reserve, and the last time we had him on he said, there has never been a period in this country where we've had such stagnate growth over a period of time.
Jim Carr: Which if we can keep that trend up, that's a really good thing.
Nick Goellner: It is.
Jim Carr: Because reasons why we had some of the inward droning on again, one of the reasons why we had some of these recessions in the past is because of financial, I don't know, what you call it vehicles, I think is what they call them. Kind of yoked up the economy [crosstalk 00:09:29].
Jason Zenger: ... meltdown [inaudible 00:09:30].
Nick Goellner: Those are things that were created that ended up wreaking havoc. And as we go through some of those problems, we make corrections. We either like outlaw them, or whatever else we do, or so maybe we're just getting better at managing the economy.
Jim Carr: Maybe.
Nick Goellner: And we can have that slow, consistent growth, which is good and healthier for our blood pressure and our health and everything like that.
Jim Carr: Yep.
Nick Goellner: Jim, could you introduce our guest? Who's going to tell us all about marketing automation, and probably give a better definition.
Jim Carr: I'd be happy to. This gentleman just flew in today from Orlando, Florida. We met him last year at a conference in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. He was the first speaker of the day, I believe we were all impressed with what he had to deliver to the audience. And his name is Todd Hockenberry. Todd is a consultant, an advisor to B2B leaders, helping them drive growth, align with buyers, and develop marketing and sales strategies. He's a fellow podcaster. And the name of his podcast is the Industrial Executive. And he's all about creating exceptional customer experiences. And that's exactly what I'm trying to do with my business to Todd. Welcome to MakingChips.
Todd H.: Jim. Thanks for having me here. Jason. Great to see you again.
Jason Zenger: Welcome Todd. Thank you.
Jim Carr: I think we're all trying to create those exceptional customer experiences. And so we'd like to find out about how marketing automation is going to help us do it. First of all, tell us in your words, what is marketing automation? And why should a manufacturing leader care about that?
Todd H.: That's a great question. Marketing Automation is using technology to facilitate conversations so that you can build relationships. That's really what it boils down to. And why it's so critical today for manufacturers, is that reaching your pocket and pull out that phone, right? How hard is it to get to 10 of your competitors? It's that that hard, right?
Nick Goellner: I'm doing it right now.
Todd H.: Say metal stamping, right? How many can you find?
Nick Goellner: Thousands.
Todd H.: Yeah, that's the world we live in. A large percentage of the conversation about your business about the problems your customers have is happening online, before they ever talk to you. And even after they talk to you. They are online. They're on your LinkedIn page. They're watching your social media. They're following your sales people. They open emails, they may be open documents you sent them. They're on your website. You don't know anything about any of that behavior if you don't have basic automation, marketing automation in place. A large percentage of the sales process or the buying process or the process of changing, right? Which is what we're all about, right? We're trying to get people to change from this state to a better state. If you don't have marketing automation, that process all happens in a vacuum. You don't know what is influencing them. You don't know what content they're consuming that may be they're taking into the meeting with all the senior people to make the decision. You don't know.
Nick Goellner: Clearly, and we've talked about this before on MakingChips. And I've talked about this with my sales team as well. There's an access to the information that is just unprecedented nowadays. Like I told my salesman this all the time, the role that you had 10 years ago, it's gone. You know what I mean? Nobody needs you to introduce that new variable helix and miller anymore, because you know what everybody already knows about it. And they're certainly not going to take 30 minutes to have you come in and introduce that when they can watch a video online or read a website. Or just whatever else it is.
Jim Carr: Right. Who wants to schedule 15 minutes with the salesman?
Jason Zenger: Nobody's got time.
Jim Carr: Oh my god, it's painful.
Jason Zenger: Nobody's got time.
Jim Carr: I got to get that salesperson. They got to come, I got to say, Hello. We got to cut through all the crap, I got to hear about his-
Jason Zenger: You have to add value. And we're not talking about sales [inaudible 00:13:15].
Jim Carr: I know, but I get what you mean.
Nick Goellner: Yeah, but we kind of are in a way. We always divide sales and marketing and we kind of are talking about sales. I'm actually writing an article for this week about the profile of the business development Rockstar. And it's a sales guy who knows how to leverage content. That's a business development Rockstar in my mind. Because you're right the people are just looking for that video that teaches them. Okay, what's a variable helix and Miller? How should I hold this part or whatever it might be. And the sales guy who knows how to keep that content in front of them and educate the audience is the guy I want to hire.
Jim Carr: Speaking of is I literally just got an email from a client this morning who said, "I saw this video with Titan Gilroy and their new [inaudible 00:13:54] Harvey and Mill. I need you to give you to give me a price and send me one of those." I thought that was kind of funny and it kind of these longest line of this access to information. So Todd, we were talking earlier about what you see out in the field from talking to manufacturing leaders, is that there's a misuse of marketing automation. Give us a little rant about what you see out there that people are doing wrong.
Todd H.: Think about this. We all know what happens when you go on a website and you download an E-book or an infographic or you fill out a form, right? You put your name and your email in there. We know that right? How many of you folks out there have PDFs stacked up in a folder somewhere in your computer that you've never read?
Jim Carr: Oh, I've got probably 100.
Todd H.: You've got them, right? And how many of you know what happens next? You all know what happens next.
Jim Carr: You can started getting spam.
Todd H.: You start getting email and you think of it as spam, right? Because it's not value added email.
Jim Carr: It's not valued.
Todd H.: Email's still great, but it's getting harder and harder to cut through the clutter.
Jim Carr: Nick created automation in order to not have that [inaudible 00:14:47].
Nick Goellner: I've created a fake, email@example.com email address.
Todd H.: What you're talking about is you're destroying poor marketing automation, right?
Jim Carr: Oh, okay. Okay. That's marketing automation? I was going to ask you if that is the simplest form of marketing automation, but you're saying that's bad marketing automation.
Todd H.: Well, it's the original form of, or the kind of classic form of marketing automation. 10 years ago, HubSpot started the idea of inbound marketing, they popularized the term, it's been around longer than that. But the idea is that you'd create landing pages to attractive offers on your site, you drive eyeballs to your website, they'd convert. You now have a lead that you could nurture with automation. And then when they were ready, and they reach a certain point, behaviorally, they clicked on something on your website, or they put their hand up and said, I want to talk to a salesperson. You then could then facilitate that sales conversation. This was meant as a way to automate the capture of contacts and emails and begin sharing value through automated emails that were timed or they could be based on behavior. For example, if somebody came back to your website, you could send them a follow up, right?
Jim Carr: They sometimes call that gated content.
Todd H.: Yes, you guys are reacting to that. What you just described is what happens with all marketing tactics, all marketing ideas, right? Gary Vaynerchuk said something great and it's hysterical. He said marketers ruin everything. And marketers have ruined-
Jason Zenger: We do.
Todd H.: They've ruined marketing automation to a great extent because everybody knows that when you fill out that form, you're going to get a series of automated emails that are maybe lightly personalized. Maybe they got your name in there, but it's not really about you, right? They're just following some automated formula and hoping that you convert and you move down the sales funnel and then eventually pick up the phone and call them. I believe that's the lightest, easiest form of marketing automation. And I just don't think it works all that well anymore. The marketing automation we're talking about is really to try to understand the behavioral footprint of your prospects, your people that are already in your funnel, and your customers. As you can see how, when, how long and the types of content and the types of engagement they want to have with you, right? This isn't about you say how you want to engage with customers. Marketing Automation done well today is about how they want to engage with you.
Todd H.: You use automation and technology to give your prospects your sales prospects, your marketing prospects and your customers, especially your customers, the opportunity to communicate with you share information with you. And then you can use these marketing automation tools to understand their behavior, and then you can serve them better and help them more. That's the goal.
Jim Carr: Okay, Todd, let's just stop right there. Can we start talking about a couple of brands that the metalworking nation would be familiar with. What you call marketing automation? Because I've already written down a couple of them to ask you like, video ad. Is that a marketing automation tool?
Todd H.: Yeah, you talking about video, customized videos very powerful. I just-
Jim Carr: Very powerful.
Todd H.: I just did a ... I'm under an NDA so I can't tell the company, but you would recognize the name of this company. It's a large publisher in the current events political space, and I just met with the CEO, right? Very high level meeting. And we're working on a consulting project with him around the ideas in the book inbound organization. And my follow up to him was not an email which I know he doesn't like to read.
Jim Carr: No.
Todd H.: I sent him a customized personalized email.
Jim Carr: Got you.
Todd H.: Summarizing the conversation, adding some more content and say here's the next steps I'm going to take.
Nick Goellner: You email him a video of you telling him how you're going to proceed?
Todd H.: Yes.
Jim Carr: That's that's just one.
Todd H.: That's one.
Jason Zenger: What about a pop up chat on your website? Is that marketing automation?
Todd H.: Absolutely, because a pop up chat can be designed. It doesn't have to be every page all the time. You can set chats with the right tools to show up for the right people.
Jim Carr: Sometimes they call those chat bots.
Todd H.: A chat bot would be an automated conversation. A chat bot would be you would figure [crosstalk 00:18:30].
Nick Goellner: ... next level of what Jim is talking about.
Jason Zenger: Yeah.
Todd H.: Yeah. The person would ask questions and it would automatically answer those questions and move them further into conversation.
Jim Carr: Supposedly.
Todd H.: Supposedly, if you set it up right. It's a decision tree, it's if then this if they ask this, then you answer this. A chat window is basically where you connect a human being over.
Jim Carr: It's alive. It's real time.
Todd H.: It's live. It's a real person, right? Like my wife, my wife will never call you, never, ever never, never. Did I say never.
Jim Carr: You said.
Todd H.: My wife will never call you if you're a service provider. If you have chat or you can do email and they'll respond. She'll do that all day long. She will never call you.
Nick Goellner: I'm glad you said that. Because I hear so many people when they see that little chat thing on a website, they're like, I would never use that. But there are people who do and that's why people ... and you know what? I use that separate email, like you were just talking about because they always, those chat bots always ask for your email address too. And so I have to [crosstalk 00:19:19].
Todd H.: Then they start the marketing automation, sending those spam emails, right?
Nick Goellner: Yeah.
Todd H.: That's bad use of ... don't do that folks, that's bad email. People know what you're doing. I can tell you a story. A lot of manufacturing companies don't have chat. I have a client that use chat and has sold capital equipment over $25,000 apiece up to 50,000 in that range of dollars, they've sold it on chat. Got orders, purchase orders, sold business using chat.
Nick Goellner: We have chat to at Carr, and it's been pretty successful. I mean, my sales manager is talking to people via chat on our website.
Todd H.: Let's follow that. You asked about other-
Jim Carr: Why? I think the important thing is why and why does your wife want to do that? Why does Nick want to do that?
Nick Goellner: Actually, I'm like, get on the phone guy.
Todd H.: Yeah, me too.
Nick Goellner: But I know that some people aren't like me. I just want to make every communication channel available so I can take care of everybody.
Todd H.: Two answers to that.
Jason Zenger: Jim's more like the fax guy.
Jim Carr: I am.
Jason Zenger: You said you fax [crosstalk 00:20:14].
Todd H.: I'll tell you what.
Nick Goellner: Is that your opinion?
Todd H.: If you send a fax today-
Jason Zenger: Oh my god.
Todd H.: ... you'd be ... would anybody else send a fax today?
Jason Zenger: No.
Todd H.: Here's your sales Tip of the Day, folks send a fax you might get their attention.
Jim Carr: Unless you want to talk to Jim Carr, then you can send him a fax.
Jason Zenger: Jim, I thought you said you're busy.
Jim Carr: We are Jason. [crosstalk 00:20:33]. We're going to have a great year.
Jason Zenger: I'm looking around and I don't see any messy desks. I don't see any paper thrown about, what's going on?
Jim Carr: Well, first and foremost it's part of our culture that we have low paper, but since we've been using ProShop ERP, the whole tactic behind using that ERP system is to go completely paperless and we are dramatically reducing our paper flow through the entire facility.
Jason Zenger: So you're not quite there yet. But the goal is to be totally paperless.
Jim Carr: We're not quite there yet. But we've only been using ProShop now for about nine months.
Jason Zenger: Well, I got to be honest, I mean, most manufacturing leaders when I go into their offices, I mean, there's stuff all over the place.
Jim Carr: Well-
Jason Zenger: [crosstalk 00:21:15] everything.
Jim Carr: I think it just it creates a clean system. If everyone knows how to utilize the system efficiently, then the paperless thing will work. Yes, it's hard for an old school guy like me to not have that print in my hand. But at the end of the day, we're moving in that direction.
Jason Zenger: So go to proshoperp.com, for more information. You can call our good friend Paul.
Todd H.: Nick made a great point, he asked, "Why is that? Why do some people love chat? Why don't others?" There's two big reasons. The first one is that as human beings we like to consume information in different ways, right? Some are auditory learners, some or experiential learner. Some like to read. A lot of people love video, right? Everybody's a little different, right? Just that alone, you said you have to have some kind of way for people to reach out to you engage with you in all those different types of engaged, right? The way people are just different. The other piece is, I teach a class at a school called Stetson University of Florida that go Hatters. And I teach, it's an intro to sales class. I've seen it in these kids, this is who you're going to sell to in the future folks pretty quick. And they aren't like you, right? They've grown up with that cell phone in their pocket.
Todd H.: They're used to absolute instantaneous access to information. And if they have to go on hold, forget it. They're not even going to do it, right? The phone tree where I got to hit 17 buttons to get to a person? Give me a break. If you're doing that, throw it out, put a human being on that phone. Because if somebody picks up the phone and calls you they want an answer right now. That's what they're used to. They can go on websites, they can get immediate feedback. And again, if you make somebody sit on hold today, shame on you, they're going to go. The worst thing you should do it on hold is at least say give us your phone number will call you back in seven minutes, right? Don't make people wait.
Todd H.: I can tell you stories. I have a great story for the book. We didn't get in the book. But the guy who was telling us he had an issue with his bank and he was sitting in his car. Long story short, he was on hold for 10 minutes waiting to get to the right person. And this is a marketing automation issue. You all hate this when you're on hold, and they asked you your information, your name, your account number, and you get to the next person. And what do they do?
Jason Zenger: Ask you again?
Todd H.: Exactly.
Jason Zenger: Oh, it's like, didn't he write it down?
Todd H.: No, it's a systems issue.
Jim Carr: Right.
Todd H.: That's poor marketing automation.
Jason Zenger: Right. They're not linking it.
Todd H.: Correct.
Jason Zenger: They're not forwarding that information that you just typed in to the person that's going to actually talk to you.
Todd H.: Those two departments aren't connected.
Jason Zenger: Right?
Todd H.: If it came in the high level, it went to the specific department, they're not connected.
Jim Carr: One of the things that I found is that the small businesses like what you described, Jim, where you're like, my sales manager answers the chat. One person, he's the be all end all. And the really big companies like Comcast or in Apple do this well. It's the companies in the middle where, maybe there's some silo problems or there's some communication problems.
Nick Goellner: Great point.
Jim Carr: They're not doing it right. What would you give if somebody like a medium sized manufacturing company wanted to get into this. What do they need to do in order to do this right?
Todd H.: Well, I want to finish my story real quick.
Jim Carr: Go ahead. Yeah, sorry, [crosstalk 00:24:07].
Todd H.: The bank guy, right. He's on the phone with the bank. He's getting shuffled around. What did he do when he finally got to the right person. He said, "It's too late. I transferred all my money to another bank, I opened up new accounts, you're fired, goodbye." Right? By the way, he was in traffic in his car when he did it. That's the world you live in folks.
Jim Carr: Time is money, people don't want to wait.
Todd H.: Those are examples of what you don't have, what we would call a centralized view of the customer, which is one record that would be with all the communications and all the activity with that customer from the marketing through the sales process to service and after the sale. It's the exact analogy of how you would track a part or a material coming in your building from one end through every station every process until it goes out the other end of the building. You do that inside your facility, very, very few manufacturing industrial companies do it from outside their facility. For the most important thing they have, marketing and sales and service relationships with their customers, and that's the most important thing they have. They don't automate it and track it the way they do their materials. That's why.
Todd H.: Then your question was, how would you start? We typically recommend using the language of lean and manufacturing. We recommend that you would map a value stream, that you would understand how people engage with your company, how they gather information, how they connect, where, when-
Jim Carr: But it's so different, Todd. Everyone, like you just said before, everyone falls into a different bucket. Not everybody is going to be responsive to one particular piece of marketing automation, right? That's why I believe it's important to have multiple and diverse types of marketing automation, because the more diverse you have across a horizontal, you're going to be able to catch somebody in those buckets.
Nick Goellner: I think what Todd is saying is there's this journey that you go through where you have to collect certain types of information before you can make a decision.
Todd H.: Absolutely. And we make assumptions about our prospects all the time. And about whether we think marketing is helpful or whether it's actually improving the process or helping the customer and moving them towards a decision. And if you don't have automation that can kind of monitor it and measure it, then you have no idea, you're just guessing.
Nick Goellner: But you don't start with the technology. You're saying start by kind of mapping out that flow.
Todd H.: Yes. What happens is most manufacturing companies have some level of technology that's related to marketing, their websites hosted somewhere. They have something that's tracking their customers. Maybe it's still ... I have a client that still uses Act, if you remember that old one.
Jason Zenger: Oh, yeah.
Todd H.: The old CRM. There's Salesforce. We love things like HubSpot, because they're integrated across multiple areas. They include your website content, blog, social media, email.
Nick Goellner: Yeah, I mean, we're HubSpot partners here at MakingChips and same with your guys.
Todd H.: So are we. In integrating everything in one platform is the key because now everybody that's touching that customer and all the automated places where they might hit you online, you now can gather data to see what's happening. You can gain, you can make decisions. You can look at your website for example, and say this is how people navigate our website. They come in here and they go to this page and they go here and this is where they live. Is that a good experience for them? Maybe I should improve that. I can measure, I can improve. Same thing you're doing in your factory.
Nick Goellner: You know what this reminds me of? Do you remember when we had my brother Noah and he was talking about the phone thing that Todd just mentioned? Where people were calling Hennig and they weren't getting to a real human being. And he kind of did that continuous improvement process to measure, how quick were we getting them to a real human being. And then he went just through that continuous improvement methodology to take it from like a really low answer rate all the way up to like the high 90s of how quick someone was getting to a human being. He didn't even like talk about marketing automation, but I think the thinking was similar, right?
Todd H.: Exactly right. Exactly. You have to measure, you have to understand first, you have to understand how your customers engage with you. How to prospects find you, how do they initially touch your company, and what do they do each step along the way? How many times does your salesperson talk to somebody before they make a decision to buy?
Jason Zenger: Oh god, a lot.
Todd H.: And what are the steps along the way? What emails have they send that get a high open rate? What tactics do they use to get prospects to give them a call back and get a meeting setup, right? Measure these things. Marketing automation can help sales and marketing do these things. And I agree with what you said earlier, sales and marketing are no longer really two different things, they're the same thing. And I would actually even say the after sale management of clients is all the same thing as well.
Nick Goellner: You're including services in that then?
Todd H.: Yeah, it's all one, it should be one continuous thing. Because do your customers care about those silos and those departments at all?
Jim Carr: No. That's a really good point.
Todd H.: They don't, they don't care. They want the experience. They want a seamless, helpful experience that improves their world, gets them to where they want to go. Helps them achieve their goals, achieve the outcomes they want. And if you have silos, right? If your marketing department throws it over to sales and sales starts over saying, "Okay, well, why did you reach out to us?" That's a horrible experience, right? Marketing automation should be able to inform the salesperson, what pages they looked at, what content they downloaded. What questions they asked? Where do they go online? How many times were they on your website? Did they engage with you on LinkedIn? You should be able to see all. The salesperson can be able to context for the first phone call. The first phone call's not, "Hey, I hear you're interested in stamping metal or some stamping metal parts." No, it's going to be you need this for this and to do that ... It becomes very specific and the salespeople can add a lot more value.
Jason Zenger: Yeah, one of the things that we're doing at Zengers, and it's kind of related to what you just said, instead of having these different departments like the sales department and the customer service and the support department, I'm strategizing how to move these to more like these mini teams, these organisms where you have a sales support and service working in tandem for a smaller group of customers in order to bring them closer to each other and also to the customer.
Nick Goellner: Have you figured out how you're going ... Are you going to group them by like regional customers or types of purchases?
Jason Zenger: I think it's going to be more behavioral. Like how the customers want to interact. We'll have our VIP customers that value the [inaudible 00:30:00], the integration, the productivity enhancement, the continuous improvement. And then we'll have our customers that value more of the online experience. Then we'll have our customers that are more just transactional. And then there could be some regional. We're putting together teams at this point and trying to have these broad buckets of customers.
Nick Goellner: So the process is-
Jason Zenger: We're not going to get it perfect.
Nick Goellner: Right.
Jason Zenger: [inaudible 00:30:20].
Nick Goellner: The process is between like a transactional, I need to buy some cutting tool inserts, versus someone who's like, "hey, what's the right tooling for this specific job?" And then they're talking to you every single time they get a new job. Marketing Automation looks totally different from one customer to the next.
Jason Zenger: Yeah, because like, for example, say, Carr Machine and Tool, I think that the future of interacting with Jim's companies that he's going to value more of that or his team's going to value more the online experience, but he's going to have times where he's going to say, "This job's killing me, I need your help or I need more production out of this job." And so he's not necessarily going to be directly with that team, but we need to be able to plug that team in when he needs it.
Nick Goellner: Yeah, Jim. Are you trying to move it more to where more the interaction is online? Because you're a job shop,
Jim Carr: We are. A contract precision manufacturer, yes.
Nick Goellner: As the customer, I'm trying to picture myself as one of your customers. Will I be able to go onto your site and see your machining envelope, and what types of machinery you and what types of processes you're capable of doing.
Jason Zenger: Sounds like Jim, you always talk about more industry specific solutions, like [crosstalk 00:31:24].
Nick Goellner: Do you want to get someone on the phone, how does that work for you?
Jim Carr: Ideally, we want to get them on the phone right away. We don't have our equipment list on our website, because we want to start engagement with them right away, either through our chat box, which is on our website.
Nick Goellner: You talk about more about your uniqueness than anything, right?
Jim Carr: Right. We've been-
Nick Goellner: That your new machines?
Jim Carr: ... implementing-
Nick Goellner: Anybody can buy a machine?
Jim Carr: You know how many people sell precision machining services out there? Through EOS and this discovery and I know this is going off on a tangent alert, but we've developed our three uniques and it's our people, our communication and our technologies. We kind of put the prospect of the client through the filter first. If we feel as though they don't value those three uniques, we really aren't really interested in dealing with them at all.
Nick Goellner: But at the end of the day they're just trying to get a job done. It's interesting that you don't put your equipment list on your site.
Jim Carr: No we do not.
Nick Goellner: Because if I got part that I need machine, I'm going to be wondering, does this guy have the technology?
Jim Carr: Ask, ask us. Because at the end of-
Nick Goellner: Then I have to call you. I don't get to look at-
Jim Carr: You can send me an email. You can send us a chat.
Nick Goellner: Yeah.
Jim Carr: You can [crosstalk 00:32:33].
Nick Goellner: But I don't get to just get it for myself by just viewing your site?
Jim Carr: No. What made you say so?
Nick Goellner: This is an E-commerce company.
Jim Carr: Right. It's a little different from what you and me and you Zenger's are doing. This is a little bit more of an intimate relationship.
Nick Goellner: But we're engineering.
Jason Zenger: Totally disagree with you there. I think all of us promote intimate relations with our customers.
Nick Goellner: We are all very intimate and romantic individuals.
Jim Carr: Do you believe that your business's a little bit more E-commerce based than mine.
Jason Zenger: It depends on the customer. Which is what I just said is that we're moving more towards like behavioral teams, because some of our customers, yes, it's an E-commerce experience. And some of our customers were literally in their shop, three to five days a week.
Nick Goellner: What does Todd think about this? I want to hear it from the expert.
Todd H.: I think Jim's right. I think you've got to identify what makes you different than your competitor. And it is not your equipment. It is not a stamped part coming out the back into your factory. Again, I don't want to say their commodities because ... but the reality is if there's a specification for that part, it's driven by an OEM, a tier one or two suppliers is sending to them. They're meeting very specific technical requirements. Everybody they reach out to more than likely can meet the technical requirements. What's the differentiation? Is it how you treat them, how you talk to them, how fast you respond? Do you keep your promises? Do you have a design process that eliminates rework or tooling changes? Those are the things that are going to make the difference, right? And that has nothing to do with your ... may have little do to with your equipment but it's really more about your people. And how you think And how you build your business.
Nick Goellner: Well, you said that they reach out to you because they know you can make their part. And if I don't know the equipment that they have, I don't know if they can make my part unless I call them or email them.
Jim Carr: But you still won't know even if you know their equipment.
Nick Goellner: Yeah. I guess that's true.
Todd H.: You don't know if they're subcontracting or whatever [crosstalk 00:34:15].
Nick Goellner: Or maybe that piece of machinery is dedicated to another job and could never make it down there or something else.
Todd H.: What I would say to Jim is, and I think you're absolutely right. You talked about what we would call persona, which is a certain type of person who's the ideal buyer, and you're only going to work with those people because you know them the best, you know their issues, you can deliver the most value, and they're not going to beat you up on price. And they're going to expect a good price, but they're not going to ... it's not going to be about price. They're going to build a relationship with you for the long term because you understand them. And your marketing and your automation are tied to your marketing can help you identify those people and keep you from wasting your time on poor fit customers.
Jim Carr: 100% correct. Exactly.
Todd H.: I have a quick story I want to tell. While we were writing the book Inbound Organization, I had a clients in Indiana and they made capital equipment. One of the new products they brought on was a tube cutting laser. And they were cutting tubes like, say an exhaust on a Harley, they could cut the holes out of it, right? That's a half a million dollar piece of equipment. And we were just getting started with this client. They hadn't fully adopted marketing automation yet. And they did an open house and I was invited. I was there. And the owner of my client was talking to one of his customers who'd already bought other equipment from them. So there was a customer, known well. A guy walked right up to us and said ... did the introductions and said, "I want to buy one of those." And he pointed to this half a million dollar laser. I was like, "Oh, great." He's said, "I've eliminated five or six other companies and I've gotten down to you and one other company, who in your company, do I need to talk to you about getting a proposal?"
Todd H.: And I almost fell over. This is a half a million dollar piece of equipment. And my customer did not know that his customer was looking for this. Marketing automation would have told him that this customer who's in their database was on their website, looking at the laser information that was consuming that content, and they could have proactively reached out to that customer who ultimately did buy from them. So it that worked out, but they had no idea.
Jim Carr: Because they would have had insight.
Nick Goellner: That's why I asked because our analytics show that like our equipment list page does get a lot of traffic. People are looking at it. It's a really interesting conversation with a couple different perspectives here.
Todd H.: I would say you'll not list your equipment to differentiate, I would list my equipment as part of my persona and say, this equipment produces these types of products for this market.
Jim Carr: For these industries.
Todd H.: It doesn't do these things, right? I would use it as a way to eliminate people bothering me or wasting their time. Ultimately wasting their time.
Jim Carr: Exactly, they're ultimately wasting their time.
Todd H.: I would use it as that. I would not lead with it. I would not put it on my homepage and say, "Hey, look at how clean my shop is, right?" When people come on your website. Again, this is what automation tells you. They want to see them. They want to see themselves, their issues, their problems first, and they'll get to you eventually. You need to start with you. That's what automation will start to tell you.
Jason Zenger: What is the most ... In order to put a bow on this episode. What is the most basic easiest thing that a manufacturing leader can implement in their company in marketing automation right away? And why should they do that?
Todd H.: That's a great question, Jason. I would say that the two things that you need to have, first would be a content management system for your website that's giving you feedback and information about how people are consuming your content, what they're interested in how long they use it. Again, you can get some of this data from Google Analytics, some free tools. But you need to have a tool that's really allowing you to understand how people are engaging with you online. That's number one.
Jason Zenger: So that would be from a company like a HubSpot?
Todd H.: Sure.
Jason Zenger: And you can get free versions of HubSpot to plug into a WordPress site or you can ... like MakingChips for our site is built on HubSpot.
Todd H.: Right. A lot of people use WordPress is the most probably, I think, the most popular one in the world.
Nick Goellner: It's like 30% of the internet is WordPress.
Todd H.: Yeah. But you have to get a lot of plugins and you have to ... once you start to add all these plugins to get the kind of value we're talking about. Now you have more expertise status.
Nick Goellner: And maintain all these integrations and everything like that.
Todd H.: That's one of the reason we love HubSpot, because it's an easy tool to use. And it's kind of everything's all in one and it's easy to manage.
Nick Goellner: Absolutely.
Todd H.: That's number one. Number two, I would say is a CRM, a Customer Relationship Management system. And the CRMs for most people, or Customer Management Systems or really maybe even more accurately data management systems. It's kind of a glorified spreadsheet.
Nick Goellner: Rolodex.
Todd H.: Yeah, kind of. A CRM ... remember the word relationship. That's the key word in that acronym. Relationship is what a CRM should help you facilitate. It should deepen your relationship. It should give your salespeople context, it should give them information when they need it, and allow them to add more value to the prospects and customers that you have. If your CRM is just a place where you park phone numbers and emails, that's okay. That's better than the spreadsheet, I guess. But it's got to have a lot more value than that.
Nick Goellner: That's why you're talking like okay, "Don't silo marketing, sales and service because it's one relationship." Sometimes you're interacting on a marketing level or a sales level or a service level, but it's really one relationship and one system like a CRM can manage that whole relationship.
Todd H.: I'll give you a quick scenario real quick. We have a client, big client I'm thinking and we just did a lead management project and implemented a CRM program for them across 25 different locations. They do a lot of marketing work. They have sales teams that manage big prospects and proposals with large commercial builders. And then after the sale, maybe a year or two later, these commercial builders come back and are starting to look again for the newest latest and greatest. Okay. The marketing guys, they're creating content to try to attract people. The sales people wants the leads come in, it's all being tracked in HubSpot, they can see what happened in marketing, what content these people consume. When they have their initial conversation, they don't have to say, "Hey, what are you interested in?" They know because they've looked at these pages on the website. Say they get the order, they get the sale. After the sale, a year later. This lead's coming back there on the website now looking at something different.
Todd H.: The system can tell the salesperson to this customer is now on their website looking at this information. So maybe I want to have a follow up call with a customer.
Jim Carr: Now's the time to ping them.
Todd H.: Yeah. Now I want to follow up and say, "Hey, did you know we have this new ... " Whatever, right? We have this new product, we have this new thing, it's value added. You can now instead of just saying, "Hey, how's it going? What's going on?" That's not ... nobody likes that call. Everybody-
Nick Goellner: How big of commitment does the average manufacturing leader who's really at Ground Zero with this need to make. Does he have to start hiring marketing people? Is this technology outrageously expensive?
Todd H.: No, I mean HubSpot is going to start in hundreds of dollars a month range and obviously if you add features to it's going to go up. There's other tools out there that are relatively inexpensive. Most of these tools are software service so their subscription base monthly. You're not buying a server and buying hundreds of thousands of dollars [crosstalk 00:40:41].
Jason Zenger: That's the trend in that type.
Todd H.: Yeah.
Jason Zenger: It's how it's going anyway.
Todd H.: It's not a big heavy lift in terms of dollars. Where it comes in is business leaders, manufacturing company owners need to take it as seriously as they take any ERP system, whereas they take a shop floor automation system. They'll spend hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars and weeks and months doing that and leave the customer management to a spreadsheet or [crosstalk 00:41:03]. It's crazy. They need to put marketing automation and Relationship Management using technology on the same level, they put ERP and shop fraud [crosstalk 00:41:11].
Jason Zenger: Very, very interesting Todd.
Nick Goellner: Well and that's one of the reasons why we talk about both of those topics. Why we have you on MakingChips. Because both of those things are very relevant. We're going to actually start talking about that shop floor software, ERP management very soon on MakingChips, but you're right, the customer relationship Marketing Automation is also very important. We need to wrap this episode up. Todd, we appreciate having you on the show. If there's one call to action that you would give to the Metal Working Nation, what would that be?
Todd H.: You can check out our website. Its top-line-results.com, you can find our blog. We write about this stuff all the time. Our podcast is listed there as well. And I'm happy to connect with people on LinkedIn. That's just Todd Hockenberry, H-O-C-K-E-N-B-E-R-R-Y. And I ever a request Nick, since I came all the way Chicago when you create that balling bar, I want a stool in the corner. I have a name for it, it's called the bourbon bit. [crosstalk 00:42:06]. That's what I want.
Nick Goellner: That sounds great. Well, what's our call to action guys? What do we want our audience to do?
Jason Zenger: Well, I know for me, I don't know what Todd said about kind of the marketing automation that's been left in the dust. That's kind of concerns me and I know a lot of what Todd talked about is really more the cutting edge stuff. But we need to ... my company, we need to get with it. Because I feel like sometimes we're doing the things that came about a year or two ago. And those things are, people are doing things with their email, like I know I am in order to filter through all of that marketing automation. We need to be innovative. We need to be different. We need to be able to reach customers in a different way.
Jim Carr: Yeah, well, my biggest takeaway from today was Marketing Automation is an insight as to what your prospect or what your customer is doing with regards to me. Meaning we can tell if a client or a prospect is clicking on an email multiple times. We can tell if they're on our LinkedIn page looking at what we're looking at, or looking at us. Or they're on our website, looking at particular industry served or different ... To me the biggest insight and the biggest takeaway today was Marketing Automation equals insight.
Nick Goellner: Yeah. And the key to all of this is like, we don't design it around ourselves. We designed this around our audience around our buyers. And speaking of audience, if you guys like listening to the show, please leave us a kind review on Apple iTunes or whatever podcast player you're using. That's the currency of the podcast world. And you can also reach out to us on MakingChips.com
Jim Carr: The currency of the podcast, yeah.
Nick Goellner: Yeah, it's all about reviews, man.
Jim Carr: It is.
Nick Goellner: If you want your podcast to continue to grow, it's got to be love from the audience.
Jim Carr: If we were selling T-shirts on Amazon. You think we'd get a good review on that?
Nick Goellner: Well, I like our T-shirts I kind of-
Jason Zenger: Our T-shirts are awesome. I'm wearing one right now.
Nick Goellner: What do they say?
Jason Zenger: If you're not making chips ...
All: You're not making money. Bam.
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Nick Goellner: If we could think of-
Jason Zenger: I got to have some stuff to edit of Jim out anyway. You might as well [inaudible 00:44:47]. He tees up jokes without the ending.