Training for Performance - not Credentials with Montez King

Episode 204 | Challenges: Growth Process Workforce

Training to achieve top credentials has long been a goal of many in the Metalworking Nation, but what about training for performance? Montez King, Executive Director of NIMS, unpacks the power of training machinists to perform at their ultimate best. How do you measure performance? Listen to the episode to find out! 


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Montez grew up on the rough side of the tracks in Baltimore - eager to pursue something bigger than himself when he grew up. Encouraged by a high school instructor to pursue machining, Montez found himself learning the tricks of the trade in his high school machine shop. Over the years in various manufacturing jobs, Montez endeavored to find solutions to the issues he found riddling the manufacturing industry - namely, the habit of companies to reward their employees for hoarding their expertise. As he climbed the industry ladder, Montez encouraged a paradigm shift towards a community rich in growth, teaching, and learning. 

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Redefining the values: training for performance instead of credentials

When Montez became the executive director at NIMS, he laid out a new mission for the organization - to train from the end. Manufacturers are always learning. Technology continues to grow at a rate that demands elite performance and an insatiable desire to learn. Montez explains that simply having a list of credentials doesn’t cut it anymore in an industry where performance equals compensation. Employers are coming up against unique problems every day that require quick and expert solutions. Performance has become the new measuring stick. 

NIMS helps companies train for performance with specific goals and standards in mind. When measuring performance, they determine whether or not an individual can operate within the responsibilities of their job description while drawing upon the competencies associated with that job. The training isn’t just for the sake of training. It’s training with a specific performance goal in mind. 


Empowering the standards while building the performance 

Manufacturing leaders know that they can’t wander aimlessly when trying to improve their teams. There needs to be a goal - a standard of achievement. NIMS takes this need for standards and applies it to their performance measurement, creating training methods that enable the trainee to meet the performance goals of the employer. Trainees leave with the ability to make an analysis of the task at hand and to apply their expertise based upon their best judgment of the tools, time, and needs within their environment. 


Montez makes it clear that standards should not be held above performance. The answer to the employer’s needs is the competent and consistent performance of the trained individual. Credentials are awarded to individuals who complete the training and meet the performance standards so that the trainee is recognized for their hard work, while also meeting the needs of the employer. It’s a win-win for everyone involved.



It’s a three-way stop in the NIMS stakeholder environment 

NIMS Logo_resized 380x190 50px borderIn order to make the performance training at NIMS a true win-win, Montez has helped create a stakeholder environment in his company’s training methods. Using the image of three bars, each one stands for a stakeholder in the training: the employer, the trainer, and the trainee. Everyone is reaching for the same goal, and each one is held accountable for their part in the deal. Validation is achieved when the trainee can draw upon the competencies they have learned and can successfully apply them to the environment that their employer has defined for them. The employer is responsible for establishing the standards, the trainer is responsible for creating a training method that builds performance and skill, and the trainee is responsible for mastering the craft and competence in applying knowledge to real-life situations. All three bars have to measure up. When one falls short - they all fall short. 



NIMS is building an exciting opportunity for manufacturing teams at IMTS 2020

To Montez, performance measurement is preventative maintenance! In order to push the Metal Working Nation to the next level, NIMS will be hosting a one-of-a-kind challenge at the IMTS 2020 trade show. The goal will be to measure the performance of a team, since teamwork is such a vital part of the manufacturing industry. This PM will require multiple skill-sets to come together to design, create, and produce a task that will then be voted upon by the IMTS crowd. In accordance with the NIMS training methodology, the competition will include standards, inspections, and requirements modeled after real-life challenges. What’s the reward? You’ll have to find out at IMTS 2020! 



Here’s The Good Stuff!

  • From Baltimore to NIMs - Montez’s manufacturing story. 
  • The detrimental trend of hoarding knowledge. 
  • Changing the culture and mission of NIMS. 
  • Measuring performance instead of credentials. 
  • Creating a win-win training method for employer and employee.
  • The magic of entanglement in training. 
  • The importance of having standards and reliable methods. 
  • It’s the employer’s job to define the desired performance standard. 
  • NIMS is offering an exciting opportunity at IMTS 2020!


Tools & Takeaways


This Week’s Superstar Guest: Montez King


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Jason Zenger: Jim, don't you have online chat for Carr Machine and Tool?

Jim Carr: As a matter of fact, we do, and John just mentioned me the other day that somebody was chatting with him online. I'm like, "Great." That's all millennials want to do, right?

Jason Zenger: Yeah, and that's why Xometry has it as well.

Jim Carr: I know it's fantastic. You can just go right to the thing. If you have a question, just go right to the chat box, type in your question and they can answer it for you right away.

Jason Zenger: There's a little box that says help with a bubble. Type your questions in there and away you go. Go to Welcome to MakingChips. We believe that manufacturing is challenging, but if you're connected to a community of leaders, you can elevate your skills, solve your problems, and grow your business. I'm your host, Jason Zenger and I'm joined by my cohost. Jesee Jim Carr.

Jim Carr: That's a good acronym.

Jason Zenger: You like that Jim?

Jim Carr: I do.

Jason Zenger: Jay Z and Jesee.

Jim Carr: I do. I liked that a lot.

Jason Zenger: And we're here at MXT.

Jim Carr: I know. Formerly DMDDII.

Jason Zenger: Oh gosh.

Jim Carr: I know all these acronyms.

Jason Zenger: To be letters.

Jim Carr: Yeah. But I do feel at home and it's always.

Jason Zenger: That's what we're going to talk about NIMS.

Jim Carr: NIMS. Yeah, I know another acronym. We'll have to find out what that means from our gut.

Jason Zenger: We'll get into it.

Jim Carr: We'll get into it and there's going to be a lot of good, valuable information there. But before we go there and introduce our guest, it is good to be here at MXD. I feel like we're home. This is truly our home. This is our studio. We've been recording here for years. They're great people. They're all about equipping and inspiring the metal working community who we're talking to.

Jason Zenger: They're solving manufacturing problems here. Absolutely.

Jim Carr: They're doing research and getting the government and private business.

Jason Zenger: It's all positive, positive stuff.

Jim Carr: Involved with each other to solve problems. It's all great. And kudos to them for having such a beautiful space and putting manufacturing and in a better light.

Jason Zenger: Yeah, I mean, I just heard the other day and this is not our manufacturing news, just a side note. Apparently we just unveiled this new aircraft carrier that is just a engineering marvel. It is like gigantic and it is run by less people and it has so much energy creation. However, they do that on one of these aircraft carriers that is just mind blowing apparently. And that required some manufacturing and that required some collaboration between private business and government. And it's always interesting to hear about how those two come together. I'm always a minimalist government guy. But it is good when you see the fruits of when these two sides work together cause we need them both.

Jim Carr: I agree.

Jason Zenger: Jim, I know you need to hire people.

Jim Carr: I do.

Jason Zenger: You can't just hire any random person, can you?

Jim Carr: I can't.

Jason Zenger: You cannot.

Jim Carr: Well, I mean-

Jason Zenger: I mean, you got to hire somebody that's going to help you make parts and take care of your customers.

Jim Carr: Since you asked.

Jason Zenger: I didn't ask anything yet, I just made a statement.

Jim Carr: No, you asked if I'm looking for people. You told me-

Jason Zenger: I know you are looking for people, what's the criteria?

Jim Carr: What's the criteria?

Jason Zenger: For those people?

Jim Carr: First and foremost, they have to align with our core values. If they are not aligned with our core values from the get go. I only hired that. That's the very first thing.

Jason Zenger: We're not talking about culture today. I get that.

Jim Carr: I know.

Jason Zenger: What's the other thing?

Jim Carr: Well, they have to have some mechanical aptitude. They have to show me that they're passionate about the industry, they understand it and they want to have a career in this industry that they want to get them excited about manufacturing. They get it, they want it, and they have the capacity to do it. GWC.

Jason Zenger: [crosstalk 00:03:32] mechanical aptitude, they need to know how to do math. They need to really want to create things.

Jim Carr: Well basic, I think that they need to have good computer skills and good mechanical aptitude? If I was hiring a kid right out of high school, a student I should say right out of high school, I would say the person that would be ripe for a position in our shop would be somebody from the autos class, somebody that's had some CAD cum-

Jason Zenger: Okay, so now you're getting a little more manufacturing specifications.

Jim Carr: Maybe they were in the shop class. Somebody that has hands on experience like that and likes that because let me tell you, not everybody is a college bound, right? And not everyone shouldn't have to go to college. Some people have hardships that they can't send their kids to college. And quite frankly, college is not for everybody.

Jason Zenger: You don't have to go to college to be successful.

Jim Carr: You don't.

Jason Zenger: A successful manufacturing leader or a successful machinist. You just need to have some of those things that you just mentioned, like the passion. And you know what? We're going to talk to the leader of the most popular credentialing organization in the metal working industry.

Jim Carr: He's been around ever since I heard and I've been around for a long time. So yes.

Jason Zenger: I don't want to ask you about Carr. And you don't have to ask me about Zenger-

Jim Carr: I'm not.

Jason Zenger: But that one, well we're just not going to talk about that right now. But what I do want to talk about is.

Jim Carr: You don't want to talk about yourself?

Jason Zenger: No. Are you getting a little excited about IMTS?

Jim Carr: I am.

Jason Zenger: You sound like a little bit closer, isn't it? What are you most excited about?

Jim Carr: It's less than one year away.

Jason Zenger: It's less than, well no.

Jim Carr: Yes, it is.

Jason Zenger: Is it less than a year?

Jim Carr: It's mid September, September 12.

Jason Zenger: Okay we're about there. You're a little bit less than one year, you're right.

Jim Carr: A little less than one year.

Jason Zenger: What are you most excited about? And I'll tell you what I'm most excited about, working with AMT and IMTS and promoting their show for MakingChips.

Jim Carr: Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited about that because we had a great collaboration with them in 2018 and it was great working with them and just getting the word out about the show. And then I think too-

Jason Zenger: And about IMTS.

Jim Carr: And about an IMTS. And always great to see the new equipment and the new technology that's going to be there. And I think what we can do as manufacturers when we show up at IMTS 2020 is to see how the industry is evolving, how it's changing, what are the paradigm shifts, what's the new thing?

Jason Zenger: I'll tell you about that.

Jim Carr: It's going to be automation, robotics.

Jason Zenger: I'll tell you about, what I'm most excited about is that one of the themes, or I'll talk about two of the themes of this next IMTS is going to be the community and we've talked about that. And then also one of the other big things that you're going to see from a technology standpoint is going to be the connectivity of the machines. That's going to be a huge part of this upcoming IMTS, which we've always been talking about, is the digitization. And so now we're going to be talking about just how those machines are really going to be communicating with each other in a digital format that's going to be very popular.

Jim Carr: I look forward to hearing about it quite frankly. You got any manufacturing news from my friend?

Jason Zenger: I do. The title of this manufacturing news article is Rockford Rescue Mission Offers New Manufacturing Training Program and basically what it gets into is that in order to rescue, is it a pet rescue? Very funny Jim.

Jim Carr: I don't know.

Jason Zenger: No, it's associated with helping people and giving them a second chance in life. Part of what they're doing is that they're offering onsite training programs to fill a huge need specifically in the Rockford community. And they're helping these individuals not only get their GED, but also using NIMS training programs in order to move them forward in a career in manufacturing. Because apparently this organization was getting a lot of phone calls asking if there was people that would be applicable to work in the manufacturing industry. They had an aha moment. A light bulb went off and they said, "We should start maybe getting a little manufacturing specific with what we do." And I know that there's an organization at Bethel New Life and they do assembly things.

Jim Carr: I know. You're involved in that, right?

Jason Zenger: Yeah. And then their program is a little more developed and robust and stuff like that it seems, although I don't know a lot about this Rockford program.

Jim Carr: Maybe our good friend and partner Nick Golnar knows about that.

Jason Zenger: Lets go visit a moment next time round.

Jim Carr: I would love that.

Jason Zenger: Yeah.

Jim Carr: We need to do more of that. We need to do more-

Jason Zenger: More roads trips? You're all about the road trips, I think.

Jim Carr: I think we need to know more about giving back to the community, especially with the local community. And I think it's really important because we've been blessed with a good life and I think that if we can encourage and guide people into this industry, they can have a successful career that can take care of them for the rest of their life.

Jason Zenger: Yap. Absolutely. And so they're doing this with the Rock Valley College tech works in order to provide a certificate of completion for these individuals. And like I said, giving them a new lease on life, a second chance, that's all that we can ask for to give back to the community gives everybody a second chance. Everybody deserves that, right?

Jim Carr: Everybody deserves that, absolutely.

Jason Zenger: Should we get to our episode or do you have something else you want to talk about first?

Jim Carr: I love talking about the boring bar because it's fun.

Jason Zenger: And you like to drink.

Jim Carr: I like to drink. I like wine. There's no question about everybody that listens to MakingChips knows that I like wine. But I love the boring bar. I love how we branded it at MakingChips here. I love what it represents. I love that it equips and inspires the Metal Working Nation in another format rather than the podcast. Why don't you tell the people what they get when they subscribe to the boring bar? They're not going to get a bottle of wine from us. No.

Jason Zenger: No, but that might come eventually. What they get is they get a curated and originally written articles from the MakingChips team on topics that are sometimes related to what we talk about in the podcast, but also could be a little bit different. We also highlight some of the videos that we're also producing. And also from what I understand from Chris Fox, our creative director, is that we're actually going to be putting original content into the boring bar that you can only get by subscribing to the boring bar.

Jim Carr: Yeah, that's what he just told us a couple hours ago.

Jason Zenger: They're doing things without us Jim. Can you believe that?

Jim Carr: Autonomy, right?

Jason Zenger: Should they be asking for permission first?

Jim Carr: They should. They should.

Jason Zenger: They really should.

Jim Carr: They should put their hand [crosstalk 00:09:29].

Jason Zenger: I guess, this is a good thing. I'm not going to complain. In order to get onto the boring bar, all you have to do is text chips, C-H-I-P-S to 38470. And what happens is.

Jim Carr: What happens?

Jason Zenger: We don't automatically harvest your cell phone number when that happens. We actually-

Jim Carr: We don't spam them with text messages.

Jason Zenger: We don't spam you with text messages. All it does is, it gives you a link that you sign up for the newsletter.

Jim Carr: It makes it easy to boring-

Jason Zenger: It's just an easy way for us to let people know how to get access to the boring bar. Texts Chips to 38470.

Jim Carr: Very good.

Jason Zenger: Jim, could you introduce our guest?

Jim Carr: I would be happy to, I enjoyed the few minutes already before we hit the record button.

Jason Zenger: I can tell you guys to settle down.

Jim Carr: I know.

Jason Zenger: To save it for the episode.

Jim Carr: It's all good stuff and he's a wealth of knowledge and it's going to be a good episode. Yes, I'm going to read the guy's bio. And Montez King is the executive director of NIMS, N-I-M-S, the nationally recognized organization responsible for developing national standards and competency based credentials in manufacturing trades. Mr. King is responsible for overseeing all aspects of the NIMS operation, including administration programs and strategic planning. Welcome Montez.

Jason Zenger: Yeah, welcome Montez.

Montez King: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here today.

Jason Zenger: And you said you flew in to come and see us and we appreciate that. And you also said that this was the last leg of a little campaign tour that you've been doing on behalf of NIMS and you've been doing things with what other organizations? Tell us briefly where you've been these last two weeks.

Montez King: Well, in these two weeks, I participated in top shops for Modern Machine Shop magazine. I also spoke at a women in manufacturing conference, which had a-

Jason Zenger: That's great.

Montez King: -A good group, about a little over a hundred people in that group.

Jason Zenger: They let you in, you are not a woman?

Montez King: Yeah, they let me in. I was rare in the group. And I worked with some partners, one of our bigger customers, Raytheon Missile Systems division and two [crosstalk 00:11:30].

Jason Zenger: Great.

Montez King: We're doing some great work for them. And now I'm here.

Jim Carr: Just to let everybody know that this is our second attempt at scheduling.

Montez King: That's right.

Jim Carr: Because you were supposed to fly in from Louisville, right? Or no, no, Chicago had the bad weather.

Montez King: Yeah. Chicago.

Jason Zenger: You're in June and it got canceled.

Montez King: Flight got canceled. I was coming out of DC-

Jason Zenger: Dang was-

Montez King: I felt so bad. I said, "Oh I really want to be here."

Jason Zenger: Montez, one of the first things that Jim and I always ask people for is what's your manufacturing story? And yours is a little bit different than say, Jim and I, we grew up in the family business. You actually have a video about your manufacturing story. From our friend Jeremy Bout who we've had on MakingChips many, many years ago. Jeremy Bout from company called Edge Factor, which also helps to educate young people in the manufacturing industry. But I know you grew up in the West side of Baltimore, which from my understanding is that similar to the West side of Chicago, unfortunately known for its violence and maybe like some drug related crimes. And now here you are executive director of NIMS in the manufacturing industry, which I don't know if the time you thought about manufacturing, and you were also brought to the White House.

Jason Zenger: I mean, these are amazing things have, we've been invited to the White House yet?

Jim Carr: Not yet.

Jason Zenger: Tell the manufacturing leaders out there, tell us your manufacturing story. How did you go from Baltimore to NIMS and to be invited to the White House?

Montez King: Well, it's because of some old white guy that grabbed me and just shook me and said, "Hey, I'm looking for a few good black guys for this trade." That's how I got started. I mean, that's how you sum it up.

Jason Zenger: Too shay.

Montez King: I was introduced that way. You had-

Jason Zenger: What's this gentleman's name?

Montez King: Benjamin Webber.

Jason Zenger: Okay, I'm going to write that down.

Montez King: Oh, he was something else in his day. We're actually having lunch. I want to get back and he's about 85, 86 years old.

Jason Zenger: Owns a manufacturing company?

Montez King: Retired.

Jason Zenger: Maybe we should have Benjamin on the show.

Montez King: He was actually my high school instructor.

Jim Carr: Oh, how cool.

Montez King: Yeah, I saw some kids, you had two sides of the track, you'd had the nerdy kids and then you had the kids that were in the streets and unfortunately I was on the streets, tired at that time and there were some kids that were doing some really positive things I thought, and I wanted to see what they were all about. They were talking about applying to this trade school that was on the other side of town. It was on the East side of town. Like, "Oh wow." That's on the other side of the planet for me. And so I decided to apply, but my grades were really weren't that great. They were working hard to get into school. And I wasn't. And so I didn't get selected.

Jim Carr: You did not get selected?

Montez King: No, I was going for business administration. Can you believe that this administration?

Jim Carr: Yeah.

Montez King: They said, "I'm sorry you didn't, you didn't get accepted." And I'm a grown man. But at that time a couple of tears came down like, "Wow, I really wanted to make a difference." And they said, "Well, is there anything else you can do?" And when we talked about the machine shop, they say, "Oh, we have some openings for that." It didn't matter what your grades were for that when you get in.

Jim Carr: You got bad grades in high school too.

Jason Zenger: No, I didn't. I was good.

Montez King: I was down the dark hallway. The lights were flickering, the maintenance people didn't get down there too often.

Jim Carr: Yes, I do know.

Jason Zenger: That was how the shop class was.

Jim Carr: I was there.

Montez King: The machine tools had 1942, some of the tags there were World War II tags.

Jim Carr: Oh my God.

Jason Zenger: They were probably rock solid machines though.

Montez King: They probably still run today.

Jim Carr: They're probably still running. What were they? Horizontals and verticals.

Montez King: Horizontals. They had a few knee style mills. I don't know if they were British port brand, but I know they had a few knee style, but most of them were really old. But it all looked like the latest and greatest technology to me.

Jim Carr: Very cool. Very cool.

Jason Zenger: But tell us, how did you make it to NIMS? How did you make it onto the White House task force?

Montez King: Well, I would say-

Jason Zenger: Were you asked to be on as a part of that task force. I guess we-

Montez King: I was. I was asked, but working through my career, I've always taken anything I did very seriously, whether it was good or bad, I always tried to perfect it. When you first get into the industry, for me it's like buying that car for the first time. You don't care if it's the right car, if it's reliable, you just want to get a car.

Jason Zenger: When you're 16.

Montez King: And then after... yeah, when you're 16, right?

Jason Zenger: You have that freedom to do anything you want.

Montez King: Yes, yes. And that's where I was when I came into the trade. But then as I started working, and I'm thinking, "I'm appreciative of this opportunity, but there are a lot of things that can be fixed here." And so over the years I would perfect them. Even it didn't matter if I was getting paid, didn't matter if it was being recognized. It was something I had to do for myself. As I worked through the industry, people started to recognize that and I moved up, I moved from a work study student to an apprentice.

Jason Zenger: You're a leader in your organization.

Montez King: Yeah. Everywhere I went, it just always resulted in that. And then for every company I've went to, it was just a ladder for me. And even at NIMS, I eventually became the executive director.

Jim Carr: When you say you saw so many things that didn't make sense to you, what were those glaring things about the industry that was just a big roadblock for you? What did you know? What did you feel needed immediate change about our industry? Was it perception? Was it just the fact that we were laggers lagging behind we weren't leading industry types or what?

Montez King: No. it wasn't that perception. The minute I saw the machines, I was drawn in it. For me it was more about why are the companies awarding their employees, their machinist for hoarding information. They were rewarding them for what they knew rather than what they know and what they can transfer to others. That was very bothersome for me because I wanted to learn and everyone wanted to hoard all of their knowledge and skills. It's like toolbox notes, so how can you grow as a company if the person that's 60 plus years old retiring soon doesn't want to show the person that's 16 years old and trying to learn, and that doesn't make any sense to me.

Jason Zenger: That's a really good point. That was actually one of the reasons we started MakingChips as we wanted to make this more of an open community where we exchange ideas.

Montez King: Well, you know that technology is forcing us out of this course.

Jason Zenger: Yeah, I do.

Jim Carr: Yes, it is.

Montez King: Because years ago, I mean, you can identify what a journey person was, right? I mean, you can go from shop to shop and identify that, but today there's no identity. You can say a journey person as someone who knows a lot of information, not have a lot of skills, but you can't really dial it down to what skills they have because technology growth is at the velocity is so fast.

Jason Zenger: Right. I mean, Jim always talks about how wise he is and I'm like, "What exactly do you know, Jim?"

Jim Carr: I know, I have a lot of great fundamentals.

Jason Zenger: I know you do, I was just playing with you.

Jim Carr: That's okay. But I want to just be clear that when I say that, I definitely have a lot of fundamental machining skills that I've learned over the last few decades of being in the industry and no one can ever take that away. But unlike many people my age that are hoarding information and don't want to give it away, I'm doing just the opposite.

Jason Zenger: Those are the people that are not going to be successful or I've seen from my experience that they're no longer successful.

Jim Carr: I'm giving in mind that information away on the show to the entire world.

Jason Zenger: And it hasn't hurt you.

Jim Carr: It has not hurt me.

Jason Zenger: Of course not.

Jim Carr: It's only made me a thought leader in the industry.

Jason Zenger: Exactly.

Jim Carr: And really define me as an expert, but enough about me. Montez you're so right. And the mentality of manufacturing, old school manufacturing was, and this is how I was raised, is everything is very guarded. Don't give away any information about anything. Hold it close to your heart, because that guy down the street's going to steal your customers, your employees and everything else. I lived that for decades. That's how I was raised with that. For me to transition out of that into where I'm at today has been not difficult, but it's been-

Jason Zenger: It's different.

Jim Carr: It's been different, but I'm embracing it now and it's been very rewarding. Let's back up here. I have a love hate relationship. Everyone that listens to the show with acronyms, it seems like everyone's acronym crazy.

Jason Zenger: For the manufacturing nation out there. Jim's got his little book he writes them down into, just so he can remember all.

Jim Carr: Montez, what the heck does an IMS stand for? And what happens at your HQ?

Montez King: Are you guys ready for this?

Jim Carr: Sure.

Montez King: Yes.

Jim Carr: I'm going to write it down.

Montez King: You got to write this down.

Jim Carr: N has got to be national.

Montez King: No.

Jim Carr: No, see. Go.

Montez King: NIMS stands for NIMS. See, we want to talk about the new NIMS. The new NIMS is just NIMS. The old NIMS is the acronym.

Jason Zenger: I love that. You say you're getting rid of whatever it stood for before, which we have no idea. It's gone.

Montez King: We just offer to it as NIMS.

Jason Zenger: Let's not talk about it. Okay, that's fine.

Montez King: Yeah, it's not talking about that. I like that.

Jason Zenger: I love that. Let's talk about the good stuff.

Montez King: The good stuff.

Jason Zenger: The new NIMS is the new NIMS.

Montez King: It's the new NIMS.

Jason Zenger: It's just NIMS.

Montez King: It's just NIMS.

Jason Zenger: Tell me about the new NIMS. Why is it different nowadays? How is it different than when was that?

Montez King: '95. '95 is when it was founded. I think they started with the development in '94 and then it was legal in '95.

Jim Carr: 1995 yeah. When did we convert to new NIMS?

Montez King: When I started as the executive director.

Jim Carr: In what year?

Montez King: It was February 24, 2017.

Jim Carr: That's pretty young yet.

Montez King: Pretty young.

Jim Carr: Pretty young. What is the new NIMS doing differently than the old NIMS and what do you want to tell the Metal Working Nation that's exciting about the new NIMS?

Montez King: Well, we have seven principles when we are working with our customers on training. I'm not going to go over them all, but I think the first one is relevant to this conversation and that is training from the end. Always trained from the end. But the question is what is the end? I can give you like three different blocks to start with. Is it the job description? What about the competency or the incompetent or is it the performance? And so there are some flaws out there in our training. If we're thinking that job descriptions, that's the end. And that's what we should train tours. Even if you say competencies and we're a competency base credentialing organization, you're still wrong, it's performance.

Jim Carr: And that's what we need.

Montez King: It's all about performance.

Jim Carr: We don't need-

Jason Zenger: It's all about, we talk about it all the time. We don't need, I mean resumes are nice, but a resume doesn't produce quality parts on time for our customers.

Montez King: And it doesn't matter if you say, "I've received X training, I received Y training." it's performance. You can take someone at MIT if they can't perform. It doesn't matter where you came from.

Jason Zenger: An MIT guy is not going to help you.

Jim Carr: Probably not.

Jason Zenger: He might be smart, but he's not going to help you.

Jim Carr: If you'll remember that word performance came up when we interviewed all of our HR people and we held pretty tight to performance equals compensation. Remember that conversation?

Jason Zenger: Yeah, absolutely.

Jim Carr: I hear you. I feel you. I know exactly what you're saying.

Jason Zenger: There's a change for the manufacturing industry and that is a change for an organization like yourself, which used to be about the competency, it's about the credentialing, it's about the certificate. It's about, I've achieved this, but it's like, well what can you do for me?

Montez King: We pass a lot of credentials through our system each year, but we got to get the employers more attracted to the credential. We're focusing solely on competencies. There's no attraction because you're always going to get that same response that says, "Well, you've got the credential, but there's still a gap between what I need and what training has provided and the credential that you've earned." And so now we're switching that around and so we're saying out this message because, and this is what we get from the pullers. We don't make this stuff up. We absorb a spun from the employers and then we come up with solutions to match. And so if you put someone in a position of performance that's just say you go through someone's training program, whether it's online, whether you can say, "Hey, we're teaching CNC, we're teaching hands on. We have all of this great training."

Montez King: And even they earned a NIMS credential at the end. How are you measuring their performance? Now, performance requires an individual to operate within the responsibilities of the job description and draw upon the competencies that are associated with the job description. That requires doing an analysis to form judgment and make decisions and using the competencies to satisfy the decisions that you've made. If you're just measuring whether they're competent, you haven't measured the job performance requirements. If you're training towards a job description, you're just still going towards the competencies. Job descriptions and competencies rarely close the gap alone. If you can have a great student, you can have a great learner. I consider myself a good learner and back in my day because I always went above and beyond what was put in front of me.

Montez King: But that's rare as well. If you're talking about the average person going through and you're training to these too, you believe that your job descriptions or your competencies are the end. You're going to have typically have a gap. And so we help now the new NIMS, what we're doing is we're showing individuals or companies how to measure performance. And here's the other piece we're doing. I teach quantum physics as well.

Jason Zenger: Oh nice, wow.

Jim Carr: You're a smart guy.

Montez King: Well, and that's more metaphoric, but I am saying we teach the laws of quantum physics, which is particle entanglement. We entangled the trainer and the trainee and the organization together and it's a phenomenon where there's an action here. You're going to get some spooky action at a distance from another particle, which we call the particles trainer training. Let's look at that. He said, "Well, how does that work?" Well, when we're measuring performance, we identified the key features or variables that an employer looks for in their performance. What are those areas that they have to make decisions, they have to operate within their platform? So, we measure that. Now we train to... we encourage to train towards that. That's training from the end. And if you are the, let's say, Jason, you are the trainee. If there are 10 features, we're going to give you a zero or 10 for each feature.

Montez King: A zero is, it's wrong at 10 is right. There's nothing in between. Zero is wrong, 10 is right. If you are going to be judged on those 10 features or variables, they're synonymous and Jim, you are the trainer. We're going to entangle you two together because you have to earn 10 points for each feature. That's a hundred points. If you're responsible for training Jason, for all 10 features, you are then being measured to see if you got a 10 rating.

Jim Carr: I'm a reflection of him.

Montez King: You're reflection. And now we're entangling you. You are now a stakeholder and the responsibility of getting Jason where he needs to be. And Jason, you are responsible because you need to get a 10 on all features. Particle entanglement.

Jason Zenger: Nice. Well, it sounds like this new NIMS, forget about the acronym. We don't even care what that is anymore. Maybe-

Montez King: It doesn't matter.

Jason Zenger: Maybe NIMS should be this name of a person, an embodiment or a caricature of what it means to be this high-performing individual or group of individuals in the manufacturing industry. Are you catching what I'm going out to?

Montez King: I'm right there.

Jason Zenger: Yeah.

Jim Carr: As a marketing guy, hopefully you re-branded.

Jason Zenger: Did you re-brand the logo?

Montez King: You're giving me some ideas from the woman that got me here today. Her name is Lynn Gorman and I'm thinking, "I'm going to pass you need listen to this."

Jason Zenger: Good, good.

Jim Carr: You're changing it. You need to rebrand, if you're going to rebrand, you need a logo to go-

Jason Zenger: But think about this Jim, you're going to call this person NIMS. That's like his or her name and they are your ideal person working in your shop because they embody and they perform at that high level. That's what I'm thinking.

Montez King: That sounds good. Are you a marketing major?

Jason Zenger: I own a marketing company called MakingChips.

Jim Carr: This is a marketing company as well.

Montez King: Maybe that's what it is.

Jim Carr: We just so happen to be manufacturers who are marketing savvy, savvy as well. Someone says, "Why is having a standardization important to the industry and what new technologies is NIMS employing to meet its vision?" Let's break those really two questions, right? Why is having a standardization important to the industry? Pretty easy question, I would think.

Montez King: It is. It's a simple question for us. You don't want to wander aimlessly. You need a standard. The only misconception, or I would say erroneous messaging that you can get from standards is does it solve our issues? No, it doesn't solve anything, but it's needed. If we were to consult with a customer and we didn't have any standards, how do we actually move forward? And so let's go in order. If I said you need someone in the shop who knows how to align work holding devices-

Jim Carr: I was going to say indicate advice.

Montez King: Yeah. Now you can write that down. And say this is what you need to do. But what's the standard for that? Now, should they have to tram? Should they do horizontal, vertical alignment? Maybe they have to indicate some type of rotary axis in.

Jim Carr: I will tell you how we do it.

Montez King: What's the tolerance? I mean, if you did it and it's within a half thou-

Jim Carr: I was going to say one. [crosstalk 00:29:43].

Montez King: Let's say one over six. Okay, that's great. That's a standard.

Jim Carr: That's the standard.

Montez King: If you don't put the standard down, how do I know?

Jim Carr: And do it within 20 minutes.

Montez King: Yeah, exactly. Standards doesn't have to just be the behavior. You can also put the conditions on.

Jim Carr: Of course.

Montez King: The conditions. And what about the resources that you provide? Let me give you another example. If I told you, you have to set up a machine or you have to set all of your tooling. If I gave you a probe, that's a different skillset.

Jim Carr: It sure is.

Montez King: If I didn't give you a probe, that's another skill set.

Jim Carr: Right, I'd take a one inch shim and I touched everything off the top of my part and I'd come down by a half a thousandth, till it pulled on that 1000 piece of shim stock. And then I'd set the tool.

Montez King: Exactly.

Jim Carr: But nowadays we have probes that do that just like that.

Montez King: You could have two standards. We call them duties, let's call it a duty that's called work or tool setting. They can call that a duty. And those would be two fraternal duties. Meaning they are the same but they're slightly different. One is the resources have changed even though the outcome needs to be the same. That would be to fraternal duties. They can be identical duties if they're going towards two different roles. But in this case, the standard is fraternal. That's a standard. I mean, could you move forward without that standard? No.

Jim Carr: Well, I think. It's rules, a standard is a rule, it's just like a law that says you can drive 55 miles an hour down the expressway and if you go 85 you're going to get a ticket, right? You're breaking the rules. If the standard says you need to take a six inch Kurt vise, put it on a vertical machining center, take out your indicator, put it on the Quill, indicate it within 1000 over six inches, and do that in under 20 minutes. That's a rule or a standard.

Montez King: Or a standard.

Jim Carr: Or a standard.

Montez King: But let's even compound that a little bit more. Because quality standard doesn't just have learned behavior. We just told you learned behavior, right? You have to be able to indicate the six inch device, 1000 within 20 minutes. I mean, let's say, it's whatever, five minutes doesn't matter. But that's not performance either. That's all alone, it's not performance alone because performance alone is you have a device that has some type of belly in it.

Jim Carr: Oh you mean the back the hard job might be out a little bit.

Montez King: Yeah. You have to form and then do an analysis to form judgment. I have a bad vice and I need to make a decision, I need to go to better vice or I need to alert someone. See, so now you have the learned behavior, you have to be able to indicate it, but you also have the critical thinking. Those are learned behavior, learn practical skills. But what about the critical thinking skills?

Jim Carr: Yes. Or do you put a part in there and clamp it down and then indicate it?

Montez King: That's right. And how much pressure should you put on that car and determine when and-

Jim Carr: 50 foot pounds of pressure.

Montez King: When you have, I have critics out there that may say, they may be talking about the old NIMS and I couldn't agree with them on many things, but when we're talking about the new NIMS, I can make a strong argument but let's say I've got this great training program, I have the best training program, and if you're just focused on competencies, which is fine because that's what your objective is. You cannot pen that off to say it is the answer because it can't do it alone. You have to measure performance. It's just like manufacturing and machining. If you can't check something, you can't make it. You can't have a machine that says, "Hey, this machine can hold 40 million so over this distance." And say it can do all these things and not have a measuring device as the 10 times more accurate than that.

Montez King: If you can't check it, you can't make it. And it's the same thing with performance. If you can't measure it, you can't train towards it.

Jason Zenger: Jim, I thought you said you were busy.

Jim Carr: We are, Jason, we're going to have a great year.

Jason Zenger: I'm looking around and I don't see any messy desks. I don't see any paper thrown about. Tell me what's going on.

Jim Carr: First and foremost as part of our culture that we have low paper, but since we've been using ProShop ERP, the whole tactic behind using that ERP system is to go completely paperless and we are dramatically reducing our paper flow through the entire facility.

Jason Zenger: You're not quite there yet, but the goal is to be totally paperless?

Jim Carr: We're not quite there yet, but we've only been using ProShop now for about nine months.

Jason Zenger: Well, I got to be honest. I mean, most manufacturing leaders, when I go into their offices, I mean there's stuff all over the place, papers and everything.

Jim Carr: I think it just creates a clean system. If everyone knows how to utilize the system efficiently, then the paperless thing will work. Yes, it's hard for an old school guy like me to not have that print in my hand, but at the end of the day we're moving in that direction.

Jason Zenger: Go to for more information.

Jim Carr: You can call our good friend Paul.

Jason Zenger: On episode 159 which we recorded at IMTS 2018, we added a panel discussion about solving the skills gap and a friend of ours, Titan Gilroy. He told me that I had permission to ask you this question or to present his quote here, what he said during our skills gap discussion, which you're not talking specifically about skills gap, but there's some overlap here and he said, "I'm going to trend lightly, but I'm going to be truthful. I think that one of the problems with education is that everyone on the big boards are making the standards. They're not in manufacturing anymore." I believe that what he's saying is that some of the problems with training the next generation and getting them excited about manufacturing is that the standards create an intimidation factor for that new person to be a part of the manufacturing community to run an expensive machine and it actually raises the bar to getting people into manufacturing. How would you respond to that being a part of-

Montez King: It's actually a pretty good question.

Jason Zenger: Being a part of the organization that creates the standards?

Montez King: It's a good question. Let me first say that Titan has done a great job revitalizing, I wouldn't even say revitalizing. I mean, just bringing life to the trade. He does a great job with that.

Jim Carr: He sure does.

Jason Zenger: He gets people excited.

Montez King: He gets people excited.

Jason Zenger: He's passionate.

Montez King: Very passionate. I always look at that as something that we need. We need that type of passion as far as the statement of what the standards are doing. I think that is erroneous in a way if you don't have all the information. And so what's the information? What we're missing is you need standards for what you're training, you've got to set a goal, right? You can't just aimlessly go out and train and not have a standard, but how you empower the standard. If you put the standard above everything else, above performance and then it could result in what Titan is saying and that's where the new NIMS is to bring out that message and bring understanding to everyone about what the standards are used for.

Montez King: Once we develop the standards they are there, it gives us our direction, it's the scope of things, but then we have to move to what is the most important and that's performance. And even in his product we don't provide training materials. He provides training materials. He has to look at his training material the same way, your training material is not the answer to the employer. You're teaching competencies through your training materials.

Jason Zenger: Your answer to the employee is, do I have a competent person in my shop who's going to get the job done?

Montez King: Yeah.

Jason Zenger: The way I want them to.

Montez King: That's right. And so you have to measure performance. We're always going to go back to that. Now if you set what features you are observing in your performance, then you're going to need someone like a Titan's training program too to make sure they have those competencies that they can draw upon. But where NIMS comes in is you want the employer, you want to win-win situation. That's our seventh principle. We have seven principles. The first one is trained from the end. The last one is win-win. Win-win meaning you measure the performance that is personal with the employer, but you associate that or you have entanglement to a industry-recognized credential for the employee and so you recognize them for their competencies that they have attained throughout their training and through and the job. The performance is what the employer looks for.

Jim Carr: That's number two.

Montez King: That's well, principal wise?

Jim Carr: Yeah.

Montez King: No, no principal, the first one is trained from the end. That's what the employer wants, they want you to train towards the performance. The seventh principle is make it a win-win. That's where our credentials come in. Organization like NIMS and Titans' Program they work together. That's not something you separate. You work together but you got to the principles. Do you want all the principals?

Jim Carr: I do.

Montez King: I can give you.

Jason Zenger: Give us all the principles.

Montez King: I'm going to go-

Jason Zenger: I've got one, two. We need three, four, five and six. Before you even go to those principles, which we would like to hear, what Titan might be referring to is the old NIMS, which stood for something that we're not going to talk about and we don't care anymore as opposed to the new NIMS, which is the embodiment of who this high-performing individual or community is.

Montez King: Yeah. The new NIMS develops performance measures that reflect the manufacturing industry, so the first principle is trained from the end and we've already discovered that the end is performance is not job descriptions and competencies. The second is create a stakeholder environment, create entanglement between the operations, between the trainee and the trainer. Now, I'm going to give you an example of how we measure the entanglement. We use three bars, one bar for each stakeholder, one stakeholders, the organization or the employer. One is a trainer, one is a trainee. Those three bars, we don't need numbers. We can use the bars, so think about it. You have to use your imagination here. You have three bars that are side by side. The first bar is you, it's always from the perspective of you.

Montez King: The second bar is everyone else. That's everyone except you. And then the third bar is the goal of the organization. So you, everyone else, and the goal. For every perspective that you measure, it's always three bars. Now, I want to show you something.

Jason Zenger: So we think this as like somebody doing a high jump in the Olympics and you got a bar, you've got to jump over, is that bar you're talking about?

Montez King: Possibly.

Jason Zenger: Trying to bring a visual to this.

Montez King: Yes, possibly.

Jim Carr: I was good with the three bars.

Jason Zenger: I thought you like visuals, Jim?

Jim Carr: I'm seeing three bars though in my head. I'm seeing myself standing there and then I'm seeing everybody else in my company and then I'm seeing.

Jason Zenger: You said bars and Jim immediately started thinking about wine.

Jim Carr: Wine bar.

Montez King: Let's tag it on you, what you're saying Jason. The height of the bars because that's the pattern. Let's say you have three bars to same height all the way across, no numbers. And we don't care about numbers. Three bars, the same height. What does that say? That says you, if he's looking from your perspective, you have met the goal. It says everyone else has met the goal.

Jim Carr: Your goals are in alignment with each other.

Montez King: Yeah. And the company met its goals. But let's say the bars are, you are the lowest, everyone else is the highest, but neither one has met the goal. That means you are not as good as everyone else. Everyone else is not as good as the goal. Let's say you have you higher than the go or higher than everyone else. Everyone else is lower than you. But both of you are still less than the goal. It sends another message and then you can have where you met the goal and everyone or vice versa.

Jason Zenger: Or you'd be like us in the room where our bar is higher than the other three bars because we're over achievers.

Montez King: There you go. All you need is three bars to measure your performance and the entanglement. We talked about that the stakeholder environment is that if we're measuring the trainee and there are, let's say you're your company, you're going to send a hundred people through this performance measure and there are 10 features. If there are 10 features a hundred people going through, there is a thousand scores that you're looking for. Your goal is to get a thousand and your goal bar for looking at the training. The trainer looking at Jason, you, you may have received out of 10, 60 and Jason you are responsible for three of those scores because you taught Jason, you are both being rated even though you're the performer, you're the trainer. You see that's the entanglement and so that's part of creating a stakeholder environment.

Montez King: The third is separating trainers and evaluators. Jim, if you are training Jason, you cannot be in the room when Jason is being evaluated, okay? You're not in a room. That's the third principle. You have to separate that because we want you to be a stakeholder and we don't want you to have any bias in Jason's success other than training. The fourth is separate your training environments. When I was an apprentice, our training environment was your supervisor saying, "Hey, you're going to work over here today because I need you here." And sometimes it was working over here because I don't like you, you never know what it is. We want to make an even playing field for training. In other words, training for the skills is separate then production is procedural training. That's where you're learning to work with others. Seasoning experience, documentation, processes.

Montez King: But when you're getting skill training, it's outside of production even though we're still on the job. That's part of entanglement because you want the company to make a commitment that says, "I'm going to give five to 10 hours a week training my people and I'm going to make it conducive for them to learn." And then they apply it. And the other environment, which is the production environment. That's the fourth principle. The fifth principle is true competency based, meaning the only association with time when it comes to training is the tolerance. How long you will tolerate someone to learn a specific goal of training. That's the only association other than that, the start and the end point are variables because no one starts with a blank slate. We all start at different levels. You're starting-

Jason Zenger: You mean at a different skill sets.

Montez King: Yeah, different skill sets. Your starting point is going to be slightly different.

Jason Zenger: Is that like, you can correct me, if I'm off on the wrong direction, but this would be like Jim could be hiring at a couple of different points in time. He could be hiring somebody that literally needs to get on the machine tomorrow and be producing quality parts or he could be hiring somebody that is an apprentice and is just gearing into the flow and you might be doing some shipping and receiving while he's contributing to the company and learning how to be a machine expert.

Montez King: Exactly. Their starting points are different even though they may have the same goals. And so the end point is not the same as well because everyone learns at a different pace. Your start and end points are variables. Your time is only associated with your tolerance, your maximum. That's the fifth principle. Now the sixth principle is true validations. True validation, not saying I passed the training program. We have a great training program and check the box off and say you passed it or say I earned a NIMS credential. That's not true competency based.

Jim Carr: I can't believe you're saying that.

Montez King: Absolutely.

Jason Zenger: This is the new NIMS.

Jim Carr: This is the new NIMS.

Montez King: The new NIMS.

Jim Carr: This is the new NIMS. I'm a little-

Montez King: The credential is very satisfying, the competencies that you get.

Jim Carr: Yes, of course.

Montez King: The training says you have something that leads me up to earning the credential for the competency. The performance requires you to draw upon the competencies and the environment the employer is putting you under and the shop. That's true validation. You measure the performance, not whether they have the competencies or not. That's associated with performance so that's the six principle. The seventh principle is win-win. You want to make it a win-win situation. The company or the organization gets what they need. Give the employer something, you have some people say, "Well, I don't want my people that get certified because they'll leave me." Okay, well just treat them right and they won't leave you.

Jim Carr: Exactly. Then that's a culture problem.

Montez King: It's a culture issue. That's not a credential issue.

Jim Carr: Nothing to do with it.

Montez King: It has nothing to do with it. But that's the misconception that is associated with what they've earned. But they've decided long ago to leave you, they just used you to get the credentials, but they decided that long ago.

Jim Carr: Yeah, I mean, it should almost be win-win-win based on the stakeholders that you've got those three stakeholders.

Montez King: You've got the three stakeholders, you got to have particle entanglement.

Jason Zenger: There you go.

Jim Carr: That's great. That was awesome.

Jason Zenger: You can't. Montez, I asked a couple of manufacturing leaders just for their thoughts on you coming in for an interview here and what they thought about NIMS and I got a response back from a gentleman who said this to me. "I can tell as an owner of a decent size shop in our region, I'm not looking at a specific training path or accreditation. When I'm looking to hire, I'm looking for people that depending on the exact skill level I need at the time, can exhibit the necessary skills to the job and more importantly fit the culture of the company I'm building. If someone comes in with the NIMS accreditation, great, I know that they likely have the skill to do the job I need." Again, he's talking about skills, not performance, but we're talking about the new NIMS here. "Same if they've been through online training, same if they started 20 years ago as a manual machinist and can run every machine in my shop now. However, regardless, they still have to fit my culture to be successful, which is what Jim opened up."

Jason Zenger: My question to you that I thought about the first time is, what do you think about this outlook on training and accreditation? You just busted that with the new NIMS. I mean the new NIMS is not about, it's just about the skills. It's about that performance that comes into. I guess I'll ask you a different question. These new manufacturing leaders are more savvy, I would say, than the old manufacturing leaders, wouldn't you agree Jim? You're more savvy than your dad. This gentleman, Mike is more savvy than the person that owned his shop previously and they're demanding what you're now giving them. So, kudos you for being there. Does that make you feel better about what the new NIMS is all about?

Montez King: It does. This question that you're asking. We just answered.

Jason Zenger: Yeah, we just answered it. But that should make you feel better like you're on the right track. And the manufacturing leaders out there are demanding, they're demanding this from NIMS. They're demanding this performance based training as opposed to skill or accreditation based training.

Montez King: Yeah, absolutely. We get our solutions or our solutions emerge from the issues that the employers are having. And so we have to listen to that. And so yes, you'll get employers saying, competencies don't do anything for me. And it doesn't mean that, I'm sorry, credentials and it doesn't mean that they are wrong and it doesn't mean they're right. Yes. Doesn't answer that. I'm want to read this statement that I wrote. This is my statement.

Jason Zenger: Go for it. I want you say it eloquently.

Montez King: True performance validation goes beyond establishing well-defined job descriptions or competencies. Competencies that synonymous to credentials, developing training around job descriptions and competencies rarely closes the gap between training and job requirements alone. This rarity is due to not having a reliable method to measure performance at all levels. It does not matter how well one trains, if one cannot measure the desired performance. performance measures or PM's as we refer to translate job descriptions and competencies and to practical experiences that reflect what employees will face on the job. That is the key and it's a combination of them all as a combination of the Titans training platform and it's a combination of NIMS credentialing platform and then the employer. Here's that entanglement, defining what that performance is and then measuring it.

Jason Zenger: I mean, we've all had that person that we've hired where, from a resume standpoint, he looked like he was going to be great and he didn't meet the bar. He didn't perform.

Jim Carr: You don't know about performance until that person stepped on the job on your shop floor and starts performing.

Jason Zenger: But I guess Montez, is trying to say, "Well, that's what we're trying to solve."

Montez King: And here's another thing. I'm saying, I'll have critics out there that says, whether your credentials are valuable now, I'm going to flip the script. Is your training platform the right one? You have to always measure yourself as well. The measurement goes both ways. You can't say, "Well, the credentials don't mean anything, but the training does. I'm going to give you an example of how our system allows us just to measure performance, but it measures the training as well. And the credential, let's look at it this way. We talked about the three bars, right? And we said, what happens if you have three bars this same height?

Montez King: That means you have met the goal. Everyone else has met the goal and the company satisfied because everyone's met their goal. Okay, those are the three bars. But suppose there's still a gap between what the employer needs and what was done to get the trainee there. You have a responsive program because you know now that either the training or credentials and or both are not relevant to your performance requirements. Now, I have a tool that I can use to determine if I need to update my training or update the performance measure might be need to be updated. The credentials might need to be different credentials. The standards might need to be updated. Now, you have the tools to do that and it only takes three bars.

Jason Zenger: Montez, we talked in the beginning of the episode about IMTS 2018 and 2020 is there anything that you can tell the MakingChips Metal Working Nation first, that you are unleashing to the manufacturing leaders at IMTS 2020?

Montez King: Well, we're really excited about 2020 and I'm always excited with IMTS.

Jason Zenger: We all are.

Jim Carr: We are too.

Jason Zenger: We get to see people, machines. It's very exciting.

Jim Carr: It's amazing how a trade show can get people so excited.

Montez King: Oh yeah, we are too.

Jason Zenger: I think, I've never been to a trade show that people they look forward to for over a year.

Montez King: But this one's special. 2020 is special. We've been pushing performance measures or known as PMs. Some people say that's preventive maintenance, right?

Jason Zenger: Yeah, that is.

Montez King: Sure, it is. Performance measures that are preventive maintenance.

Jason Zenger: Right that's true. There you go. We can quote you on that, right?

Montez King: I think. you can quote me on that one. We're creating the ultimate PM for 2020. The whole goal of having PMs is to have, you can have one credential, let's say it's called a CNC turning operator credential, but you can have a different PM for every credential or for the same credentials. You can have a multitude of curated repository of PMs that individuals use. Some shots make big parts some shots make small parts. You can earn the same credential. That's the beauty of PM. But we're creating the ultimate PM for 2020. One area that we've seen in manufacturers today is recognizing the need for team work.

Jason Zenger: Oh, it's great.

Montez King: Teamwork, in the past it was one machinist, you did everything from the root of two to tutor. It's a culture, I grew up on, you went to the saws, you took it through the mills, lays, whatever it was. We don't operate.

Jason Zenger: It's not your father's machine shop anymore.

Montez King: No, it's not. We don't work that way anymore. And it requires teamwork. You need someone from a programming perspective, from a tool design perspective, from the machine operator setup person, from an operator, it even goes into maybe outside operations. You have to bring everyone together, maybe a welder involved, and so they have to work together as a team. This PM will require multiple skill sets to come together. Think about this. All come together. The machinists from the lens of a machine programmers, welders, automation, industrial maintenance, metrology. They're all coming together.

Jim Carr: Design.

Montez King: Design.

Jason Zenger: You're not just focused on the individual?

Montez King: No, no. It's the team. If you win as a team, there's no individual and the winner, it's as a team. None of this is really look at this carefully here. They ought to come together and solve a problem. They have to machine a large portion of components and make it product, but they also have to test the product. Manufacturers can't just build and send their products out without testing his duty cycles. They have to build a test unit, design it and build it, and they have to get into industry 4.0 as well.

Jim Carr: Wow, wow.

Montez King: They're connecting it to another device, which gives them information about how the test unit is working, how to product is working. That's beautiful. And they're going to bring in crowd. They're going to bring a crowd draw crowd appeal by having the crowd vote on their creativity.

Jim Carr: Oh, the crowd. The audience is going to vote?

Montez King: The audience, the spectators also vote.

Jim Carr: How long are they going to get to present their-

Montez King: Well, it's going to be three to four day competition and they're going to display. Now their functional work is very objective is either right or it's wrong, but they're creative work, they have to, they're going to be forced to design geometry that requires synchronized five axis machining.

Jim Carr: Wow.

Montez King: And but they can't just go crazy and design something without checking it because if you can't check it, you can't make it. They can go as crazy as they want on a design, taking five axis machining to his limits, but whatever they designed, they have to be able to do a first article inspection on it and that's what the crowd will vote on. They got the functional side to make sure that they can control and they can build and they can test and they can work together as a team. You've got the creativity for the design and anything they design and build they have to create an annotate all of the drawings, whether it's mechanical, pneumatics, hydraulics, all the symbols have to be there. It has to be to a standard. It has to be to a standard, and they have to also create an operations manual of whatever they build.

Jason Zenger: Wow, wow.

Jim Carr: Wow, wow.

Jason Zenger: Is that a competition, would you hire someone from that team?

Jim Carr: Yes.

Jason Zenger: Yeah, absolutely.

Montez King: That is performance. Don't talk to me about the training, can they perform?

Jason Zenger: What does the winner get?

Montez King: It's going to be pretty big surprise. A big, big prize, I don't know what it is but it's to be big.

Jim Carr: You're asking that's a big prize.

Montez King: That's a big investment.

Jason Zenger: They're getting bragging rights.

Montez King: Yeah, they're going to-

Jason Zenger: Do teams apply to be a part of this or individuals are going to be put on a team? I mean, [crosstalk 00:56:33]. Did you figure that part out yet?

Jim Carr: Good question.

Montez King: We're planning qualifying rounds. Those are-

Jason Zenger: Regionally.

Montez King: Yeah, regional and we're going to have several of those this year. This fall, we're going to have some, and I think there's another round of qualifying rounds and the early part of 2020 but the project, the performance measure for 2020 will be released somewhere around the first of the year, first and '20 so they can practice.

Jason Zenger: They can practice okay.

Montez King: All the way up. But when it comes to the competition.

Jim Carr: That's three months, by the way.

Montez King: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what we work 16 hours a day on my team, we're working on that. It's very powerful, very powerful.

Jim Carr: You're going to say when it comes to the day off.

Montez King: Well, once it's released they can train towards that. But on the day of the competition, you may be able to perform outside the competition, but how do you perform under sweaty palms? And because that's what you'll face.

Jason Zenger: And that goes to change in the environment, right?

Montez King: That's right. And the employers are looking for that.

Jason Zenger: Are these individuals that are going to compete in the pre-qualifying or teams. Do you have to put your own team together?

Montez King: Yes, I have to put a team together. The team that you work with in the qualifying, you're bringing them to-

Jason Zenger: What if somebody is like, "I'm a great programmer, I want to be a part of this, but I don't have a team that I can rely on." Can they join a team or they used to figure that out themselves.

Montez King: Absolutely. I will leave information for your listeners and this is where they can get in contact and start and-

Jason Zenger: It sounds exciting.

Jim Carr: It does sound exciting.

Montez King: There's something that, oh, here's another piece I didn't add. They have to do material and cost management.

Jason Zenger: It's interesting.

Montez King: The cost of their build, they're being charged an hourly rate for all the equipment that they're using and the amount of time that they put in so they can decide, do I want four people at this rate or do I want three people and get charged less in hours, but it's going to take me more time.

Jason Zenger: What about like their consumables and all that stuff?

Montez King: All that.

Jason Zenger: Maybe I can sponsor a team and give them free tooling and then they can end up being the winners. I can be part of that.

Montez King: If the prize is big enough, I might have my own personal teams and train them.

Jason Zenger: Maybe we need to talk about this Jim.

Jim Carr: I think, I'd rather have more people on the team and less time to get it done.

Montez King: But they have to figure that out.

Jim Carr: That's the point.

Montez King: And they have to look at, we don't give one for one on equipment. If there are three teams and let's say there's five teams, we're not going to give you a machine each. You have to schedule your time for what's available.

Jason Zenger: Where's this going to take place? Is it going to take place at IMTS proper in McCormick place?

Montez King: Yes, that's correct.

Jason Zenger: Oh wow. Is it going to be visible to the audience or centralized location?

Montez King: Visible to the audience-

Jim Carr: You're going to take a machine like let's say in AUCMA and they're going to-

Montez King: It won't be in AUCMA. It will be Haas.

Jason Zenger: Haas is the sponsor?

Montez King: The sponsor. Well, one of the sponsors, Lincoln electric is our other sponsors.

Jason Zenger: Sure.

Jim Carr: But as far as the machining the parts, it's only going to take place on a Haas machine?

Montez King: Yes.

Jason Zenger: Because of scheduling time, they're all using those same machines?

Montez King: They're all using the same-

Jim Carr: The same identical machine. Okay.

Jason Zenger: Scheduling their time.

Jim Carr: Because you can't-

Montez King: You can't measure performance that way if you're switching it.

Jim Carr: A five Xs versus the three Xs.

Montez King: No, nothing with the standards.

Jason Zenger: Standards.

Montez King: Standards, there we go. Because they have to train towards this standard for months before they actually show up.

Jason Zenger: Wow.

Jim Carr: Cool.

Jason Zenger: That's interesting. That sounds like the new NIMS is definitely not the old NIMS, which is like we've talked about before, Jim.

Jim Carr: [inaudible 01:00:03], old.

Jason Zenger: It's not your father's machine shop anymore. It's not your father's NIMS anymore.

Montez King: It's not. I made a commitment that I would change this company and make it more relevant to our industry.

Jason Zenger: Love it. Great.

Jim Carr: Congratulations Montez. That's awesome.

Jason Zenger: That is fantastic.

Jim Carr: I love that you're doing that because I think the industry needs that and nobody wants to be old school anymore. Everyone wants to be new school and the new generation of manufacturers need to embrace new ideas and representation and new standards.

Montez King: New standards. There we go. Standards are still relevant.

Jason Zenger: Standards are still relevant.

Montez King: Yeah.

Jason Zenger: Montez, thank you for being on the show.

Montez King: It's my pleasure.

Jason Zenger: We appreciate you and we'll definitely, I'm happy to meet you and I hope this turns into a better relationship between NIMS and MakingChips. I think that's fantastic to have you here.

Montez King: Thank you guys.

Jason Zenger: You're welcome.

Montez King: Thank you. All right.

Jason Zenger: My pleasure. What do you think Jim? It's not what you expected, right?

Jim Carr: Not at all. Not at all. I didn't know what to expect but I'm very pleasantly surprised to hear about new NIMS and everything Montez trying to change and making a paradigm shift in our industry because I love change. I love change. I think it's powerful and I think it's important.

Jason Zenger: Yeah, it is. Do you think that the competencies, I know you guys are busy so that makes it tough out. I mean, would you-

Jim Carr: Yeah I thought about that for 30 seconds.

Jason Zenger: I know, I know. I mean, you definitely got to tell your guys about it and I don't know. We need to find out eventually from Montez what that prize is going to be and maybe that'll spark a whole new motivation for competing this. You never know.

Jim Carr: You never know. You never know.

Jason Zenger: Because if you're not making chips, you're not making money! BAM!

Jim Carr: BAM!

Speaker 4: As always, thank you for listening to the MakingChips podcast. You need to increase the speed and feed of your business. If you're not elevating your manufacturing leadership, you're going to get left behind. The Metal Working Nation is committed to a new way to stay ahead of the competition. We have more content to help you make and elevate at Gain access to exclusive content as well as videos, blogs, show notes, and more resources designed to equip and inspire you. We'll see you next time.

Jim Carr: Seems we're not going to talk about our companies today.

Jason Zenger: You seem upset about knowing that.

Jim Carr: No I'm not, I'm not going to cry.

Jason Zenger: I know you like to talk about yourself a lot, but I'm sorry to cut that off for you, but-

Jim Carr: I know, next time. There's always next time.

Jason Zenger: You almost look like you're going to cry.

Jim Carr: No, I'm not going to cry.

Jason Zenger: Okay.


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