Jason Zenger: Welcome to Making Chips. We believe that manufacturing is challenging, but if you're connected to a community of leaders you can elevate your skills, solve your problems and grow your business. I'm your host, Jason Zenger and I'm joined by my co-host, and self-proclaimed LinkedIn expert, Jim Carr.
Jim Carr: Hey! Thank you for that endorsement. Appreciate that.
Jason Zenger: It wasn't so much of an endorsement as it was a lesson in sarcasm.
Jim Carr: Yes, it was a lesson in sarcasm for sure, but I'll take that as an endorsement. Hopefully it's help the algorithms on my LinkedIn profile page.
Jason Zenger: You're pretty good.
Jim Carr: That's what we're going to be talking about today.
Jason Zenger: I'm moving from beginner to intermediate, I guess you would say. And I guess Wayne, we have him back in the show, and he's going to move you from intermediate to advanced in expert.
Jim Carr: Yeah, I would have to say I feel confident in my ability in LinkedIn but let me tell ya, there's a lot I learned from this last episode. Just one little piece that's going to significantly change the way that I engage on LinkedIn.
Jason Zenger: So are you skiing the LinkedIn black diamonds or the LinkedIn double black diamonds Jim?
Jim Carr: Oh, right now I'm a solid blue, right now.
Jason Zenger: You're a solid blue?
Jim Carr: I'm a solid blue.
Jason Zenger: Okay.
Jim Carr: But I definitely want to get to the black diamond for sure. Single, we'll go single first.
Jason Zenger: Like a double blue or something?
Jim Carr: Yeah, double blue sounds good to me.
Jason Zenger: You just got back from skiing, didn't you?
Jim Carr: I did get back from skiing as a matter of fact.
Jason Zenger: Well, I'm glad you didn't break anything.
Jim Carr: I know. I'm not a young man anymore, and I went with my 26 year old son, and we just had a great father-son weekend.
Jason Zenger: Did you have those little ropes connecting to the tips of your skis together?
Jim Carr: I did not have that. No, no; but I will be honest with you, 80% of the time, I skied Green runs, because I didn't want to get hurt.
Jason Zenger: Yeah. It would be bad.
Jim Carr: It would be bad.
Jason Zenger: I stopped snowboarding when I got so advanced that I broke my shoulder and my leg, and I was like, "I'm done here."
Jim Carr: Yeah. So tell me something good that's going on at Zenger Black? There's got to be something good.
Jason Zenger: Yeah, we got a lot of great things going on. I think I can say that we are just about at the tail end of finalizing our succession planning at Zenger's. So, I'm very excited about that.
Jason Zenger: I'm happy for my dad, that he's going to be on the road to doing things outside of the business world, and he can do his own thing. He just got back from Cuba, which I don't understand why he wanted to go there, but he said it was amazing.
Jim Carr: Everybody I hear the goodness there says it's awesome.
Jason Zenger: Yeah.
Jim Carr: Some pictures and kind of understand what it's all about.
Jason Zenger: But yeah, I'm excited about that. My wife and I, we've got some plans for the future Zenger's Black and we're going to be working with MakingChips marketing to take our marketing to the next level.
Jason Zenger: So, I'm excited about all these new things going on in our business. My wife is really taking ahold of her position. She's in charge of our people and our Human Resources, and we really need some help there. She's grabbed ahold of that part of the business.
Jason Zenger: So, what about you? What's going on at Carr Machine & Tool?
Jim Carr: 2019 looks like it's going to be a big year for us. We've been promised a lot of orders, and it will significantly move us forward with regards to sales this year.
Jim Carr: We'll wait and see, and I don't want to get overzealous and say it's going to be 100% better, but we're going to be very busy in 2019 and I'm excited.
Jason Zenger: Well, I can tell you-
Jim Carr: We're ramping up right now and we're working behind the scenes in advance of all these new projects that are going to be coming in the new pipeline, so, it's exciting. I think it's all about good communication and collaboration with your team, and getting them on board and telling them, "Where are we? 4 to 6 to 8 weeks out?" How we're doing.
Jim Carr: That authentic communication between everybody in the company.
Jason Zenger: Well, I can tell you from experience, when the team expands, there's a lot of difficulties in it. It used to be a situation at Zenger's where I could see every single person on a daily basis and say 'Hi' to them and ask them how they're doing.
Jason Zenger: And now as we've expanded and doubled and tripled in size, it's like, I'm not able to do the things that I used to be able to do in the past, and I'm really struggling with some of those communications and the growth, and stuff like that.
Jim Carr: Yeah, I would imagine.
Jason Zenger: They're good problems, but they're problems nonetheless.
Jim Carr: It's different. Your business is different.
Jason Zenger: I used to joke around. We've got the #1, I would say, tool stool in the country, and my dad was really like the forerunner of that, and the stories he used to tell me. He used to look to his left and look to his right, and people would be standing in line standing to get tools. Every employee was right there.
Jason Zenger: Well now, we've got people for 50-00 square miles, we've got vending machines all over the place. Things have gotten complicated, you know?
Jim Carr: I'm sure.
Jason Zenger: Complicated. So, it's hard. You're going to have your west coast location and then you'll see how things can get complicated in the future.
Jim Carr: We'll see how that goes. Don't hold your breath though. But anyway, I'm glad we're going to have Wayne Breitbarth back in the studio, because I got a lot of advanced questions for him on the LinkedIn platform.
Jim Carr: I think I'm above average, but maybe he's going to tell me something different when we interview him. But before we get on with that, Nick is here with some manufacturing news this week.
Jason Zenger: Yeah, [crosstalk 00:04:56] let's see what we got. Our weatherman, Nick Goellner.
Jim Carr: Mr. NG.
Nick Goellner: What's up, guys?
Jim Carr: Hey.
Nick Goellner: Yeah, we've been talking a lot about how MakingChips is evolving.
Jim Carr: We are.
Nick Goellner: We're more than just a podcast, and we actually publish 4 pieces of content every week; so, there's the podcast, there's an original article that we write, there's a contributed article from another manufacturing leader,
Jim Carr: A ChipIn contributor.
Nick Goellner: Yeah, we call it the ChipIn program. And then, we mention the news every week, but we're actually curating that content, putting it on our site, giving our take on it, and those are the four pieces.
Jim Carr: Giving our spin.
Nick Goellner: Absolutely.
Jim Carr: Like we're going to articulate this week's right now amongst the three of us.
Nick Goellner: What do we think about that?
Jim Carr: Right, exactly.
Jason Zenger: What are those, Nick?
Nick Goellner: This week, I actually wrote an article about the importance of link building for manufacturing leaders. I'm not talking about LinkedIn, I'm talking about building links to your website, and why that's so important.
Nick Goellner: We've got a great-
Jim Carr: Is that like clustering?
Nick Goellner: Kinda, well, clusters can help you build links.
Jim Carr: Okay.
Nick Goellner: But we'll have to talk about that on a different episode.
Jim Carr: I look forward to it.
Nick Goellner: Along those same lines, Johnathan Alonso from cncmachines.net wrote a great article about SEO marketing for machine shops. So, he contributed as part of the ChipIn program, and the news this week is from industry week.
Nick Goellner: It's, "What makes a great manufacturing leader?"
Jim Carr: Sounds awesome. What are the highlights?
Nick Goellner: Yeah, that's what we're all about, right?
Jim Carr: That's who listening to this show, right now.
Nick Goellner: So, here are the 10 points.
Nick Goellner: A great manufacturing leader builds trust, has high expectations for their people, and gives them the tools to meet those expectations.
Nick Goellner: Inspires passion, has a strong entrepreneurial spirit, is a change agent, tells it like it is, encourages cross functional teams, gets millennials and creates culture around them, sees the competitive advantage in technology, and is still an old school, big picture person.
Jim Carr: Wow. That was really powerful. I felt that as you were saying those bullet points because I feel as though I'm really trying, and i have not, to be honest, have not read the article yet, but I feel as if all of those bullet points that you said are exactly what I'm trying to implement at Carr Machine & Tool.
Jim Carr: I'm doing a pretty damn good job at that. So, that's great. Let's break it down just a little bit.
Jason Zenger: Yeah, I feel like I can also resonate with a lot of those. I'm not going to say that I'm doing them the best, but one of the things that I get caught up in is just the day-to-day tasks always keep me away from the things that I need to do in order to be the best leader that I possibly could do.
Jim Carr: Touché on that.
Jason Zenger: I need to figure out how to delegate and elevate myself above those tasks-
Jim Carr: You can only do the best you can do, Jason. So don't beat yourself up about it.
Nick Goellner: I think that comes down to having high expectations for others. You want to be in that visionary seat that you talk about, you have to have high expectations for the people under you.
Jason Zenger: Yup, absolutely.
Jim Carr: I think it's important to empower your team with tools and technologies and innovations so that they can make their job better. They can elevate themselves to the next level. That one really resonated with me.
Jim Carr: What was the last one? The old school thing.
Nick Goellner: Yeah, it's still an old school, big picture person.
Jim Carr: Yes.
Nick Goellner: At the end of the day, we have to work hard.
Jason Zenger: At the end of the day, nothing's for nothing, right?
Jim Carr: It's not just going to come to you automatically. Hopefully, our parents, and I think that all of us agree that our parents gave us the skills of work hard, play hard. Nothing comes easy, right?
Jim Carr: If you want to be successful in life, you're going to have to put in the time and effort to be successful. At the end of the day, 10. 20, 30, 50 years from now, it's going to be that same process.
Jim Carr: We're going to have to still work hard if we want to be successful. Nothing is just going to fall into our laps, unless you're extremely lucky and you happen to have a Hilton behind your name, or whatever the case may be.
Jason Zenger: I think for me, the thing that I look at most is how do I be God honoring in my leadership? That's one of the things that I'm going to start being more focused on this year. I think a part of that is going to be saying, "Okay, how do I empower the people on my team, and how do I communicate and lead them welL? Because, I can't do it all."
Jason Zenger: I think for me to say that I can do it all, is really going to propose a problem for me in the future.
Nick Goellner: You have to balance having high expectations for others and inspiring passion at the same time. So, it doesn't always feel like they're not meeting the expectations, but you're inspiring them to raise the bar.
Jason Zenger: Right, one of the things I struggle with, is I feel like I've grown the company too quickly and I lost control of a lot of things. And I think I need to kind of slow things down, and say, "Okay, time to refresh and really look at where we need to be 3 years from now and try to catch up."
Nick Goellner: Let's get into the episode.
Jim Carr: Before we go on, there's one more bullet that I want to talk about because I really don't understand what it means. #5 is, is a 'change agent.' How do you interpret what that bullet point is?
Nick Goellner: We always talk about the villain of our brand, it's that overly old school stodgy, like, "this is always the way we've done it."
Jim Carr: "It's always the way we've done it."
Nick Goellner: Exactly. "We've always done it this way, why should we change?"
Jim Carr: "Why do we want to get a new RP system? It was great when we just had it all on paper?" "We looked in a folder."
Jason Zenger: Yeah, 20 years ago, it would have been, "Why should we get a CNC machine?"
Jim Carr: Right, right, yeah.
Jason Zenger: "Why should I get on LinkedIn?"
Jim Carr: Right, perfect. Exactly.
Jason Zenger: Yeah, why should I be involved in social media?
Nick Goellner: You can't improve, unless you're changing.
Jim Carr: So, that's what that bullet point means is, extract that or peel away this stodgy-
Jason Zenger: Be the change agent means that you're leading the company to whatever vision that you have, and you're doing that in a way that you're going to encourage the people that are on your team to make the necessary changes.
Jason Zenger: One of those necessary changes might be to find them a job somewhere else if they don't want to be a part of that change.
Nick Goellner: Absolutely.
Jim Carr: Alright. We have again, we're lucky and privileged to have, Wayne Breitbarth stay with us from that last episode we just did, because I have so many higher level questions about LinkedIn that I believe are going to help me and the metalworking nation that are out listening to the show right now.
Jim Carr: Just take their LinkedIn skillset and elevate it to a new level because, on the last episode we did. I had no idea about that velocity. I thought I knew it all about waiting 24, 36-
Jason Zenger: Jim, you think you know everything about everything.
Jim Carr: I know, but I'm willing to have open ears and readjust the way I do things. I learned something, so I-
Jason Zenger: So Jim, I think that you are a little bit social media obsessed. I'm just being frank with you.
Jim Carr: I'm not obsessed.
Jason Zenger: I think you're a little bit obsessed-
Jim Carr: Okay, thank you.
Jason Zenger: I'm almost anti-obsessed. I think we can use a balance for both of us, if last episode was about what to do for the social media, for when you're not social media obsessed, this is for if you want to go beyond your obsession and really make it real for your business, and take it to the next level.
Jim Carr: Would you introduce Wayne, please?
Jim Carr: He's sitting there waiting for you to introduce him.
Jason Zenger: How about instead of introducing Wayne, we ask him about how he got into being a LinkedIn consultant? Because, if you want to learn more about Wayne and what his credentials are, you can go back to the last episode, but Wayne, tell us your story.
Jason Zenger: Everybody wants to tell their story, how they got into manufacturing, how they got into their careers. Tell us yours.
Wayne B.: So the short version because I know we've got better things to cover than my story.
Wayne B.: The short version is this: 10 years ago as a 50 year old owner of an office furniture dealership in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in the middle of the recession, where our business dropped from $16 million to $8 million, and I'm the accounting guy in the place.
Wayne B.: We're in a panic.
Jason Zenger: Yeah, where's the numbers?
Wayne B.: Yeah, we were in panic mode. I'm the bean counter, lot less beans to count, right?
Wayne B.: Well, I was over in Michigan at Hayworth, which was the manufacturer we sold, in a hotel room in March. How in Michigan in March? Not much to do there other than sit in your hotel room in between meetings.
Wayne B.: Well, I thought, "I better try LinkedIn. A friend of mine had been pushing me, a great Bible study buddy of mine, pushed me in the chest every Sunday, 'You got to be in LinkedIn, man. Business is bad. Why don't you try it?'"
Wayne B.: I said, "I'm not dong social media. Please, leave me alone."
Jason Zenger: Now you sound like me, Wayne.
Wayne B.: Right? But he pushed. He pushed and pushed like a good friend would, right? He said, "Listen." Then one Sunday, he said, "I'm not doing this. I'm not going to bother you anymore because I see that it annoys you."
Wayne B.: I said, "Thank you." He said, "but I'm going to leave you with this parting comment: You're an old [curmudgeon 00:12:38]."
Wayne B.: That's what he said. "You're an old curmudgeon." I said, "Oh, come on. I'm only 50, what are you talking about? You're 54, blah, blah, blah."
Wayne B.: He said, "I don't mean age, I mean you don't want to do anything different. You hope by just showing up to work tomorrow, Wayne Breitbarth's back and we're going to do better."
Wayne B.: So, I'm sitting in this hotel room the week after he hits me with that one, and I said, "I'm going to try LinkedIn in the privacy of this hotel room because nobody's watching. I'm pretty sure it'll be just as dumb as Wayne Breitbarth ever thought."
Wayne B.: And it was 15 minutes in that hotel experiment that I go, "Oh, my gosh. He was so right."
Jim Carr: You had an "aha" moment.
Wayne B.: That's what I had. I had my "aha" moment and it was when I saw that LinkedIn wasn't a social media site as much as it was this database of people, especially showing who your friends already know.
Wayne B.: I thought, "Oh, my gosh. This got so much power for those of us that have been in business a long time." Because we got beautiful relationships and tons of them.
Jason Zenger: Wayne, I love how you're making that transition with the brand of LinkedIn, and you're saying it's not a social media site. We talked about that a lot in the last episode and I'm really looking forward to this conversation as to how we can amp up LinkedIn for our business and our careers.
Wayne B.: Yes, so, long story short on the history thing is just that I came back, studied it like a good accounting guy would. Read a bunch of books, decided that I knew what I was doing a little bit, and I started teaching LinkedIn all over Milwaukee free, just to get exposure for my business.
Wayne B.: We'd have these events in my office. At the end of that 1 year training, catch this, I did 105 free LinkedIn events.
Jason Zenger: Wow.
Jim Carr: Wow.
Wayne B.: On top of my day job, because I was having fun, truth be told. I was bringing a lot of people and they knew who our company was. They knew what we did then, finally.
Wayne B.: Now, that didn't move the needle much during the recession, but as the recession got better, people knew who our company was because, "Oh, you're the LinkedIn furniture guy."
Wayne B.: "Yeah, that's me." My wife decided we should-
Jim Carr: That must have been really empowering, though.
Wayne B.: The fact that I didn't have this plan, to do this, right? Is just sort of, I like to call it, one of the craziest God things ever, is that sometimes you listen and you roll with it, you get places.
Wayne B.: My wife wanted to write this book; she thought it was a good idea. She could see I was having fun. The book takes off on Amazon, jumps up to the #1 LinkedIn book in 6 weeks. I go, "What?"
Wayne B.: A bean counter from the Midwest, 50 year old guy's going to teach us social media? That doesn't jump off the shelves at Barnes & Noble. Are you kidding? Right?
Wayne B.: But it did.
Jason Zenger: You're saying you weren't the poster child of social media?
Wayne B.: No, I was not. Right? But it took off and something was up here.
Wayne B.: A year later, I sat down my partner and said, "Tim, I'm having too much fun. Maybe this business is probably only big enough for one person anymore." Because, we'd gone through two recessions, '02 and '07.
Jason Zenger: Mm-hmm.
Jim Carr: Mm-hmm.
Wayne B.: And he was the furniture guy that brought me in as buddy, CPA guy. I said, "If I have a way to get out of here, you're going to have a lovely company all by yourself, and I'm going to go have a little more fun than just counting the beans at a furniture dealership."
Wayne B.: We worked out a plan for me to have several years of soft launch. It worked out beautiful and we're still great friends. I love what he's doing in the marketplace. We still care about each other's kids and stuff like that.
Wayne B.: Now, I'm doing what I love full-time.
Jason Zenger: Does he have a great LinkedIn profile?
Wayne B.: Terrible. Terrible. He still doesn't believe in what I do.
Nick Goellner: So, one of the things you brought up is, you're not the poster child for social media. Our previous guest, my uncle, he and I travel all over the U.S. selling machines and machine tools, and machine tool components.
Nick Goellner: He's always positioning me as, "Oh, he's this young kid who's on the computers" and "he's all about the Instagram and the LinkedIn." I think maybe coming from you, Alvin would listen a little bit more when it comes to LinkedIn stuff.
Wayne B.: Nick, you're so right. I speak at a lot of Vistage groups, you might know what Vistage is-
Jim Carr: I do. I do.
Wayne B.: All over the country, and I love speaking to business owners because I can get them to close the door and go, "Give me the real scoop behind this crazy thing. I don't want to hear it from a guy Nick's age."
Wayne B.: They'll believe me.
Jason Zenger: Right.
Jim Carr: You're creditable.
Wayne B.: I'm creditable because when I tell the story like, "I didn't want to do it, trust me. Maybe you won't have to either, but here's what it could do for you."
Wayne B.: Then they go, "Okay. Now I got it." You're right. They want to hear from somebody else who's not enthralled by the shiny new object, but who says, "Hey. I beat this thing pretty hard before I realized how I could drive it."
Jim Carr: And Wayne, it's the same thing Jason and I went through. More importantly with MakingChips and this podcast. We had no idea where it would take us, but we took a chance, we worked really hard. We were, I feel like we're authentic, and it's just brought us to a whole other level.
Jim Carr: I totally get that. It's very relatable, your journey with LinkedIn and our journey with podcasting.
Wayne B.: For sure, I love this story. It's wonderful.
Jim Carr: But anyways, so many questions from our last episode that have morphed over to this week's. I kind of want to go through some rapid fire questions. Keep them short, the answers short, because there's a lot.
Jim Carr: I've got 20 bullet points here. So, again. Let's go through this "more is more" thing because I always accept connections from 90% that request the connection with me.
Jim Carr: I particularly do not accept a connection outside of our country, unless I can preview their profile and they are manufacturing centric.
Jim Carr: Good advice or bad advice?
Wayne B.: Good advice.
Jim Carr: Thank you. Okay, why pay for a premium account? What are the advantages in paying $80 a month for that premium? Because, my sales manager, John, has convinced me that LinkedIn is getting a lot more gated on the information that their letting you have for free.
Jim Carr: If you pay that $80 a month, it is $79.99, you can legitimately get in your search, tools are a lot more profound. Is that right?
Wayne B.: That's true.
Jim Carr: Can we talk a little bit about this premium account and the benefits that we can gain from it?
Wayne B.: Sure. The general answer to the question "why" is if you run into what I call, "the free wall," so many times, that your forehead is starting to get all flat, boom, boom, boom, then you know maybe it's time to pay.
Wayne B.: If you're not getting a flat forehead, then probably you're paying for something you're not using. I usually take people through that scenario.
Wayne B.: Now, what are the best features you get on premium? The best features on premium-
Jim Carr: Please answer that question.
Wayne B.: Are #1, if who's viewed your profile's an important too, and it usually is for people who know what they're doing, you get to see more than the last 5 people that stalked on you.
Wayne B.: You get to see the last 90 days worth of stalkers, and that can be a tremendous resource; especially for guys like you, that are out in the public and you stand in front of audiences and you go, "Oh, my goodness. Look at this guy who looked at my profile. I'd love to chat with him. He took the first step. He looked at me."
Wayne B.: Boom. I'm going to extend a connection request. So, who's viewed your profile? Probably the #1 reason people should be on premium.
Jim Carr: No kidding. It's that insightful? It's that powerful?
Wayne B.: Well, think about it.
Jim Carr: I have thought about it.
Wayne B.: They took the first step, right?
Jim Carr: Quite frankly, I have thought about it. I don't really care if Carol Ann Schmidts from a company up in Norfolk-
Jason Zenger: But what if it's a potential client?
Jim Carr: I know, but for the most part, it doesn't seem.
Wayne B.: Ah, you're not looking at it enough.
Jim Carr: Maybe not. Maybe not. Well, I don't pay for premium. I don't, personally.
Wayne B.: It's okay. As long as you can stay on top of the 5 views, the last 5. If you can't, in other words, if you get 15 views a day,
Jim Carr: Yeah.
Wayne B.: Then you got a problem because you're too busy to look at that thing 3 times a day to get all 15 covered. That's why I finally started paying, because I had my wife trained to look at who's viewed your profile all day long, and she finally said, "This is driving me crazy. I understand for 20 bucks you can look at them the last 90 days worth. Here's your 20 bucks."
Wayne B.: She gave me a $20 bill.
Jason Zenger: Oh, really?
Jim Carr: $20 more you can full-
Wayne B.: At that time, you could.
Jim Carr: Oh, but not anymore?
Wayne B.: Well, at 30 bucks, which is the very cheapest premium for job seekers, you can get 90 days worth. That's a great one.
Wayne B.: #2, here's the second reason people should consider moving up to a premium membership. They do enough searches that they're stopping you from doing searches each calendar month.
Jim Carr: Right. And that's what my sales manager was running into. It would say, "You've reached your search criteria for this amount a month."
Wayne B.: Commercial use of it.
Jim Carr: And he'd be like, "I don't know what to do anymore." I'm like, "Yeah, head against the glass."
Wayne B.: That's the forehead.
Jim Carr: Right. The forehead against the glass. So, I'm like, "Man, this is such a powerful database. He needs, more than anybody, to have all the resources at his fingertips to be fully searching for those companies."
Jim Carr: Great idea. So, the best value out there for a salesperson's position would be what?
Wayne B.: Sales Navigator Professional.
Jim Carr: Sales Navigator Professional.
Wayne B.: The cheapest sales navigator, if it's a onesie shop, or a [twosie, threesie 00:21:08] shop, if it gets to be a huge organization, then you have to move to Sales Navigator, their team or enterprise. Because, there's some good management tools when you get that many people on it.
Wayne B.: You can transfer from one salesperson to another, because somebody quits, that kind of thing.
Jim Carr: Okay.
Wayne B.: But, Sales Navigator Professional, and that's what I'm on, is a rocket ship.
Jim Carr: Okay. So, I think we covered that premium account and the benefits we can get from it. Again, I'm trying to make this as rapid fire as possible.
Jim Carr: Multiple tagging. I know we talked about it on the last episode, but it really is offensive to me when somebody's trying to [bastardize 00:21:43] themselves on my connections by tagging me in their things because they know I have 5,000+ connections on LinkedIn.
Jim Carr: They know if they tag me, that it's going to go up on my newsfeed. How do we-
Jason Zenger: Jim, those are such strong words. You're passionate about this.
Jim Carr: But, how do we work around that? I tried to un-connect these people, then I thought, "Well, maybe that's not the right strategy to do it. Let's talk about this a little bit more.
Jim Carr: I don't want to offend anybody, but I don't think it's fair, and I sometimes think it's offensive that people tag me in their post, just because they know I have 5,000+ connections.
Wayne B.: That's a legitimate. I get offended by that as well.
Jim Carr: Good, thank you. I'm not alone.
Wayne B.: The fact that they've done that, they did that for one strategy that serves them purpose, and they didn't ask you. That's wrong. That's wrong.
Wayne B.: So, what can you do?
Jim Carr: What can I do?
Wayne B.: You can un-tag you in that post; if you go up to the three dots in the corner-
Jim Carr: Okay.
Wayne B.: You can untag you, which will be interesting because if they go back into that post, they'll see all these blue names,
Jim Carr: And mine will be black.
Wayne B.: and the middle of it is you, they'll go, "What the heck? Jim untagged me." Now, if they're smart enough, they'll go, "I guess he doesn't want to be tagged in the future."
Wayne B.: Now, if he tags you again, I'd be sending a message and say, "Listen. I know why you're doing it, I understand your strategy. I don't want to disconnect with you, but I will; but please, don't use me in future tags without my permission."
Jim Carr: Good.
Wayne B.: And that's appropriate.
Jim Carr: It's appropriate. I agree. Okay, next one is, here's the scenario: I get a connection from somebody I don't know. It's John Smith in Lincoln, Nebraska and he happens to be in manufacturing, or I don't know, it's a little vague on what I see on this profile.
Jim Carr: I say yes, then I start counting. One one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand. Within 30 seconds, I get DM from them in my Inbox and they're trying to sell me something.
Jim Carr: Another one that is completely offensive to me. Those people, I am so tired of getting those type of DMs from people that I make that connection with. The next thing I get in my LinkedIn Inbox is they're trying to sell to me.
Jason Zenger: Yeah, but isn't that what your sales manager is doing, the same thing?
Jim Carr: I don't think so. I don't think the strategy's the same.
Jason Zenger: Okay.
Jim Carr: But, go ahead. Can we talk about that?
Wayne B.: When people do that to me, I disconnect within a minute.
Jim Carr: Oh, okay. It's very interesting. You just un-connect them right away?
Wayne B.: Yeah.
Jim Carr: Because you're offended that they took the connection, you accepted the connection, and they're trying to sell something to you?
Jason Zenger: Is it because they didn't provide any value or any kind of comradery with you beforehand?
Wayne B.: Yeah. They didn't mention that Jason said that we should chat. They didn't mention that I've got an event coming up, I want to consider you for this. They didn't do anything other than: boom, boom, boom.
Jason Zenger: Buy my stuff.
Wayne B.: And they probably are using an automation tool to do that.
Jason Zenger: Oh, well we should talk about that. This is LinkedIn 2.0. How are those automation tools working?
Wayne B.: So, these automation tools, unless you've purchased it directly from LinkedIn-
Jim Carr: Oh, it's direct from LinkedIn? It's not a third party?
Wayne B.: Well, only one automation tool comes LinkedIn in the area where you and I are speaking of.
Jim Carr: Okay.
Wayne B.: You can buy a bulk purchase of InMails to your target audience-
Jim Carr: Yeah, let's talk about InMails.
Wayne B.: Pricey, super duper, duper pricey.
Jim Carr: What's the ROI?
Wayne B.: Well, you're getting a message into somebody's inbox. It's your target audience.
Jim Carr: Yeah, but I could connect with them.
Wayne B.: That's right.
Jim Carr: And then, if they accept my connection, then I can send them a DM.
Wayne B.: My strategy is just what you said. I would never suggest to a client to buy a bulk purchase of InMails.
Jim Carr: No.
Wayne B.: Use the connection works, but understand. What we're saying, that the other guy did is exactly what you said you're going to do.
Jim Carr: Right, right.
Wayne B.: Right?
Jim Carr: Yeah.
Wayne B.: Now, hopefully you can do it more professionally over time and share some information first and blah, blah, blah.
Wayne B.: The bottom line is on that: that is a great strategy, but these automation tools that have popped up outside of LinkedIn are all for the most part, illegal.
Wayne B.: They are against the LinkedIn user agreement.
Jim Carr: They violate LinkedIn's terms.
Wayne B.: When people come to me all the time, these vendors that sell these stuff, "Hey, Wayne, we've got this tool. You're a LinkedIn guy, we want you to stand in front of everybody, we'll pay you a commission to say how cool it is."
Wayne B.: Because they know I'm in front of audiences, right? They though, "If Wayne says it, I'll sign up for this thing." I ask the question. I read paragraph blah, blah, blah. I think you're in violation of user agreement. Can you show me in writing how you're not?
Jim Carr: Oh, my God.
Wayne B.: Oh, we're fine. Guess what? "We're fine" goes out of business in 60 days later because LinkedIn shutdown enough of their clients. That's the problem, Jim.
Jason Zenger: Well, you don't want them to shut you down, either.
Wayne B.: That's the problem, Jim. They're not going to shut the company down, they're going to shut you down.
Jim Carr: Right.
Wayne B.: Well, hopefully they're going to warn you. That's what usually happens.
Jim Carr: You get one slap on the hand.
Wayne B.: You get a 24 or a 48 hour warning, "We notice you're using an automation technique, we're not in this game. Please take it down." And if you don't, believe me. They will take you down. And you're in big trouble.
Jason Zenger: Interesting.
Jim Carr: The next question I have for you, Wayne, is articles. Now, we talked offline before we hit the record button today about years ago, I don't even know how long ago it was, it was really impactful to put a short article up under your profile.
Jim Carr: What I used to do, I used to do case studies for my business at Carr Machine & Tool; I used to copy and paste case studies as an article on my LinkedIn profile. Every time I cut and pasted an article into my profile, every single connection of mine would get a notification saying, "Jim Carr just posted an article." And I'd have people looking at it.
Jim Carr: What has changed in LinkedIn, why don't they do that? And why aren't articles as profound as they used to be?
Wayne B.: I can't always answer why because I'm not LinkedIn, but, my speculation is this: they were starving for content back in those days, they were looking for long form articles that were going to be housed on their site, and what better way to do it and say, "and even if you do it, and when you do this, if you take the time to write a two or three or four paragraph article, which is hard work for all of us to do that," then we're going to make sure your network gets notified.
Wayne B.: And it was beautiful.
Jason Zenger: It was beautiful.
Wayne B.: It worked. It worked.
Jason Zenger: It worked really well.
Wayne B.: Well, guess what? Everybody and his uncle did that, and then, all of a sudden, the feeds are notifications. "Ah, I'm getting notified for everything."
Wayne B.: And some people were starting to not post full articles. You know what they did? "Here's a sentence to my latest blog post. Click here."
Jim Carr: Oh, is that right?
Jason Zenger: I do remember that.
Wayne B.: It would get the notification, and it would click people to the website. LinkedIn says, "Hold the phone. This is not what the purpose is. We don't have the AI to pick up on that, that full link article is different than a link, or a paragraph.
Wayne B.: So, they have downgraded the notification process behind articles to the point where they're almost nonexistent now.
Wayne B.: Now, it's still a great technique. Here's why. I visit Jim Carr's profile for the first time. I heard you speak, I hear you're an expert by listening to MakingChips. I'll check this guy out and see what his writing is like.
Wayne B.: I go to your profile, and I open up your articles and I start reading them. Having a nice inventory of articles sitting on your profile to show your credibility when I'm visiting is still a good thing to do.
Jim Carr: Very interesting. I would not have thought of that. Nick, you were going to say something.
Nick Goellner: Yes. I started to ask that question in the last episode. We decided it was a little too advanced for the first one, but I noticed you have a blog. You've got a lot of articles on there. Do you take every single article from your blog and publish it on LinkedIn?
Nick Goellner: Because, with MakingChips, we publish 4 pieces a week now. Should all three of us be publishing each of those pieces? The podcast, the ChipIn contribution, the original article, the curated news.
Nick Goellner: Should we be publishing all that on our person LinkedIn profile?
Wayne B.: So, the answer's mostly. What I wouldn't do, if Jason wrote an original article, then you shouldn't put that in your articles, Nick. Because the assumption is, the article comes from the person whose face is on that page.
Nick Goellner: Right.
Wayne B.: Now, if you all are involved in the podcast, I think that's fair game. Right? You're all involved in the podcast. Now, there's no police that are going to stop you, but that's the assumption.
Wayne B.: Articles are original content from the me.
Jim Carr: Yep.
Wayne B.: But I think it's a great strategy, because it's just another spot where after you go through all this hard work of blogging and writing articles. Why not give it to the audience and people? Some notifications will go out.
Wayne B.: What you'll need to do, Jim, and here's what I've started to do, I post it. It gets a little bit of something, because there are a few notifications that go out.
Jim Carr: It gets a little velocity.
Wayne B.: Little bit of velocity, but then I will do re-shares.
Jim Carr: What do you mean by re-shares?
Wayne B.: I'll re-share that article.
Jim Carr: With?
Wayne B.: With my network.
Jim Carr: Okay.
Wayne B.: I'll actually go right in there or, how about this one: how about going to hit the 'share' button on that article, where then you have a choice where it says, "Into the feed" or "Direct message."
Jim Carr: What would you do?
Wayne B.: Well, you might do both. You might do the feed again, because you haven't done it for a month and it's still a great article. And you might go into direct message and go, "I got these four people that I talk to this week, that that article would be killer for them."
Wayne B.: I'm going to direct message them with a direct link to this article and say, "It was so nice meeting your team this week. This article just resonated with your problem that you have at your company. Just check it out. I thought I'd share it with you because you can top of mind to me."
Wayne B.: It gets in those four Inboxes and guess what? They're going to read that because it's in their Inbox, or they're going to at least delete it. You cause an action step.
Jason Zenger: This is awesome advice, but how do you keep track of all this? How do you organize the schedule if you're going to be re-sharing all the articles?
Wayne B.: I'd like to tell you I have this great scheduling system, other than it's Wayne Breitbarth wakes up one morning and says, "You know what? This article didn't get enough traction. It was too good to get 4 likes and 2 comments-
Jim Carr: Yes, yes. Yes.
Wayne B.: "This makes me mad and I'm going to do something about it."
Jim Carr: I'm mad, yeah.
Wayne B.: And then I'll just use the 'share' button again.
Jim Carr: I get very disenchanted when I put a post out there and it only gets a little bit of horsepower behind it and I only get 10 likes. I'm really excited though, when I get over 200 likes and 35 comments of engagement. I get very excited because, my next bullet point is views or impressions.
Jim Carr: Those particularly likes and comments result in a little notification on LinkedIn that says "This particular post has had 12,265 views. That is an impression.
Jim Carr: Can you tell us a little about what that 'views' means?
Wayne B.: I hate to burst your bubble on that one.
Jim Carr: Tell me. You're not going to burst my bubble.
Wayne B.: Tracking views and being excited about views is, forget it.
Jim Carr: Why?
Wayne B.: Well because, you know what a view is?
Jim Carr: It's an impression.
Wayne B.: It's not even an impression, Jim.
Jim Carr: Okay.
Wayne B.: It's a swoop by, when I was scrolling through my feed just as fast as my computer will let me?
Jim Carr: Okay.
Wayne B.: You were in the feed.
Jim Carr: Okay.
Wayne B.: So, the thing to track to feel really good about are the things we can track. A comment, they'll tell you who mad it. A like will tell you who did it.
Jim Carr: Who liked it, yep.
Wayne B.: And a share will show you who shared.
Jim Carr: You bet.
Wayne B.: Those are trackable. Now, will they run in the same level of good or bad? Probably.
Jason Zenger: Well, the share is going to be the most powerful out of all of them.
Jim Carr: Because they're giving credibility to your-
Jason Zenger: They're saying this post is so valuable that somebody else wrote, I need to share it with my people.
Wayne B.: Jason, I'm so glad you brought that up because it was just this morning that an insider's group that I'm in of other LinkedIn people, a handful of us that sort of shares stuff with each other. Here's the deal: shares don't work as well on LinkedIn as a comment.
Jim Carr: No kidding.
Jason Zenger: Oh, really? Okay, okay.
Wayne B.: And a guy did a test. He tested several of his things, right? That's counterintuitive, isn't it?
Jason Zenger: It sure is.
Wayne B.: It's totally counterintuitive, but that's how the algorithm's built these days.
Jason Zenger: So, the comments are the crème de la crème of LinkedIn juice that you can have?
Wayne B.: As long as you're going to comment-
Jason Zenger: So, Jim should be making comments on me and I should be making comments on him and Nick should be making comments?
Jim Carr: Back and forth, back and forth. We should be tagging each other.
Wayne B.: Yeah. So the key is, if you're going to go into a comment, hit the like because that's an interaction, then in the comment, that's another interaction, just any words in there.
Wayne B.: But then, if you tag within the comments-
Jim Carr: Business is people.
Wayne B.: That's another interaction, and then you guys should swoop back in and say something about the comment, and that's another interaction, another like. It's just counting and counting and counting. It's going to do something.
Jason Zenger: Wait. When I make a comment or when Jim makes a comment on mine, do we need to write something insightful on it? Or do I just need to say, "Jim, I had a great time with you at that event as well." Or do I need to say, "Jim, I learned x, y, z, at that event and that's the reason that I went there"?
Wayne B.: That will be better, Jason.
Jason Zenger: Okay.
Wayne B.: For sure. And maybe you even share a podcast? Maybe you say, "Hey, Jim. I learned this at the event. Boy didn't it remind you of the time we had Wayne Breitbarth on our podcast? Here's the link for those who may have missed that. Here's our podcast link."
Nick Goellner: Should we be sharing the podcast on the MakingChips LinkedIn, or publishing it on the MakingChips LinkedIn and sharing from there with our original, personal profiles?
Jason Zenger: That's a good way to go about strategy.
Wayne B.: Here's what LinkedIn tells us about that. The same content that gets posted on a company page versus an individual, the individual interactions will be 4x as good as that company page.
Jim Carr: I figured that. That's what I've always thought.
Wayne B.: Company pages are sort of dead meat these days. Guess why. What happened 4 years ago with company pages and updates?
Jason Zenger: Oh yeah, they cost money.
Wayne B.: We could then start spending money promoting company status updates.
Jim Carr: Oh, advertising, dollars.
Wayne B.: Think about it. We're all business folks here. If LinkedIn came to us saying, "We've added a premium thing where you can now write me a check and I will make sure your company updates get into certain people's feeds."
Wayne B.: But they say, "And by the way, we're still going to get to your followers for free."
Wayne B.: What business person will go, "We're never going to sell any of that."
Jim Carr: Yeah.
Wayne B.: So what they did, they toned back, just a little bit to almost a standstill about he notifications that go out about company page updates because they want you to write them a check to basically boost it.
Wayne B.: We can't spend any money on personal posts, so there's nothing that LinkedIn has a problem with. Someday they might, and guess what's going to happen to all that person posts?
Wayne B.: It's going to slow them down because it's their business model.
Jason Zenger: Does it pay to give LinkedIn money for those company posts?
Wayne B.: It's so expensive.
Jim Carr: Yeah, it's high there.
Wayne B.: Like in this range: 3 to 5 bucks a click.
Jim Carr: Oh, forget it. Forget it.
Wayne B.: Most business owners aren't into that.
Jim Carr: No.
Wayne B.: You know who spends money on LinkedIn?
Jim Carr: Recruiters.
Wayne B.: No. Well, they do for sure. When it comes to those paid updates, look through your feed of who's promoting. It's huge companies. It's companies that used to spend $5 million on television.
Jim Carr: Yeah.
Wayne B.: And now they go, "We might as well put a quarter of a million to LinkedIn." A quarter of a million to LinkedIn? That's where you get their attention. A quarter of a million dollar budget a year at LinkedIn. Well, that's not us.
Jim Carr: It's not me.
Jason Zenger: So, if you were MakingChips, we're a small start up and we don't have a quarter of a million dollars to spend on anything. If you were us, how would you use our company page?
Wayne B.: I would still post those episodes because you still have visitors. People can visit from your profile, click on MakingChips, go to the company page. You'll still have purposefully visitors.
Jim Carr: Right.
Wayne B.: Have the content there, but don't sit around and expect it's going to take you to the Promise Land. It's you guys usually posting on your own. You've got 3,000, you've got 4,000, you got 2,000-
Jim Carr: I've got 5,000.
Wayne B.: Yeah. Add that up. Let's say it's 10,000 people between the three of you.
Jim Carr: That's a lot.
Wayne B.: How many followers do you have on the company page? 65?
Jim Carr: Yeah, it's not much at all. It's very low.
Wayne B.: Forget it.
Jason Zenger: We have like 500 and something.
Wayne B.: So, even at 500, if they give it to 10% of people, it's 50. Your networks are huge.
Jim Carr: Right.
Wayne B.: Hopefully huge with the right people.
Jim Carr: Right.
Wayne B.: Doing both, Nick, is the right answer, but don't put a lot of time and effort in the company page part of it. If it's sort of a tag-a-long that I'm doing it-
Nick Goellner: What about recruiting? We're growing pretty fast right now, and we're looking for new talent all the time. Should we be doing that primarily from our company page?
Wayne B.: Same answer. 4x more activity over here.
Jim Carr: Yep. Yep.
Nick Goellner: So, we just want to make sure that the [crosstalk 00:37:17] company.
Jason Zenger: You want more eyeballs. [crosstalk 00:37:20]
Jim Carr: More is more.
Wayne B.: Now, the one thing I would say about recruiting using company pages is this: if recruiting is an important thing for your company, it's a high priority, then make sure you use the pin-
Jason Zenger: The what?
Wayne B.: You can pin one update on your feed on your company page that stays at the top.
Jim Carr: Oh, yes. I've seen that before.
Wayne B.: Use that pin for something like-
Jason Zenger: Show your open positions or something?
Wayne B.: MakingChips job of the week.
Wayne B.: I'd repost it every week and call it a new job of the week, but then I'd click to where all your new openings are, but just refresh it every week because it does have a chance to get out.
Wayne B.: Here's what LinkedIn shared with us a few years ago. The visitors of your company page, what's their objective for the company page? Most of the people want to work for you.
Wayne B.: So, you've got to give them the work stuff at the top.
Jason Zenger: Should I be making a post on LinkedIn every day? So, one day I put in link 2 of manufacturing news article. The next day I do some original content. The next day I do a video. The next day I do just a little insightful message?
Jim Carr: I don't like insightful messages.
Jason Zenger: I guess my point is, should I be doing those things? Should I be setting aside a little bit of time every day to do those things in order to keep bringing my feed refreshed in the LinkedIn feed?
Wayne B.: And your networks how big?
Jason Zenger: I have like 2 to 3,000 followers.
Wayne B.: Okay. Connections.
Jason Zenger: Connections, yeah. It says followers.
Wayne B.: Is your network made up of mostly a good share of targeted audience?
Jason Zenger: Yeah. They're all people in the manufacturing industry.
Wayne B.: Then I think it's a good strategy. Now, I'm with you on the insightful inspirations.
Jim Carr: Yeah, like those little, what to they call those folks?
Jason Zenger: What I was thinking is that I could quote something from a MakingChips episode.
Wayne B.: That's okay.
Jason Zenger: You know, even something from you, Wayne.
Jim Carr: Jason, it's vacuous.
Wayne B.: No, no. That's different.
Jason Zenger: If it was a quote from Jim, it would be cheesy, but Wayne, if I quoted you, it would probably be very insightful.
Jason Zenger: You don't think that's a good strategy?
Wayne B.: I think the quote is okay. I think people scroll by the quotes because it's just a quote. It reminds me of Facebook a little bit. Maybe it's my Facebook problem with that.
Wayne B.: I think the other two things you mention-
Jason Zenger: Videos?
Wayne B.: Have a lot of value. And the articles for the manufacturing stuff? Great value.
Jason Zenger: Let's get into the videos, because I think that's a big topic.
Jim Carr: Wait, I was going to ask [crosstalk 00:39:21] because we're getting at our time.
Jim Carr: There's two things that I feel very passionate, well. One thing that I feel very passionate about. When I create a post on LinkedIn, it has to have a very impactful, visual picture. Because, as people are scrolling through their newsfeed, you have a millisecond to have them attracted to your article.
Jim Carr: They're not going to read the text. They're going to see that picture. If the picture is powerful and impactful, their eyes are going to see it. They're going to stop and read the first few pieces of text. Then, if it's even more impactful, they're going to like it or comment on it.
Jim Carr: Yes, impactful picture. Now, what about video? How much more impactful is that video content and how do we do that?
Wayne B.: So, the current algorithm really gives high priority to video that's uploaded on LinkedIn or done right from LinkedIn.
Jason Zenger: So, you're talking about original content for LinkedIn?
Wayne B.: Not sending people to another page to view a video.
Jim Carr: Not useful.
Wayne B.: That's going nowhere because you're talking people off the site. At least currently configured, just look at your feed. You will see so many.
Jason Zenger: So many videos that auto play.
Wayne B.: That auto play, but think about it. They're giving priority to video in the feed and the algorithm. So, know that that's important on LinkedIn and if you want the most views and comments, I would say loaded up video, or video done right on LinkedIn is going to do the best.
Jason Zenger: What should we be talking about in our videos? I see a lot of things come up in my videos that are just a big waste of time. "Hey, I'm in Florida. It's sunny outside and it just reminds me-"
Jim Carr: That's for Facebook. That's not for LinkedIn.
Jason Zenger: No, there's a lot of that junk of LinkedIn, too.
Jim Carr: I know, when I see people that are having pizza at the pizza parlor on LinkedIn, I disconnect with them.
Jason Zenger: I actually unfollow them.
Jim Carr: Because that's not the platform that LinkedIn is all about.
Wayne B.: So, Jason, it's easier. What are the questions that people are asking these days, right? What are the pain points, what are the confusion points? What are things that you guys have some answers that they may not have?
Jason Zenger: Right.
Wayne B.: Those are what you post. Those are what you share.
Jim Carr: Very good. Well, Wayne, we certainly appreciate you taking your valuable time and spending it with us today and giving some insight to all of us, and the entire metalworking nation that's out there.
Jim Carr: Hopefully, we can regroup in the coming months and talk about how our connections have been, our visibility, and how our LinkedIn profiles have just moved up and evolved over the time.
Jason Zenger: Now, I've talked about it the last LinkedIn episode, but now that I've deleted Facebook and I'm really going to focus on LinkedIn and forget about all the other distractions.
Jason Zenger: I'm going to try to make a full effort and really utilizing LinkedIn and how it should be, and bringing together a community and utilizing that database. We need people at my companies and we need to get the message out about what we're doing.
Jason Zenger: LinkedIn is a great platform to be able to do that.
Jim Carr: If the people like this episode, what should they do? If the metalworking nation, the amount that's listening to this episode right now, and they're like, "God. These guys are great! I just love them."
Jim Carr: What should they do, Jason?
Jason Zenger: They should grab their iPhone.
Jim Carr: Okay. I don't have an iPhone. I'm sorry, I'm an Android guy.
Jason Zenger: So, whatever that podcast catcher they have, you should rate and review MakingChips. The best play to go would be on iTunes. It has the most visibility.
Jim Carr: It does.
Jason Zenger: Just give us a 5 star, tell us who you like better: Jim or Jason, and just tell us what you want to hear from MakingChips.
Jim Carr: You might cry.
Jason Zenger: We already did this during [IMTS 00:42:43] if you remember, Jim, and the answer was a very clear Jason.
Jim Carr: I know, but I think you were handing out $5 bills to people.
Jason Zenger: Well. It doesn't matter how you get the results. Wayne was just here, telling us how to get organic results from your LinkedIn profile.
Jim Carr: Not pay. He just advised not paying to get results.
Jason Zenger: What I would suggest is, go to makingchips.com/linkedin and you can get all the links to this episode, and you can get links to Wayne, and you can read his book, "The Power Formula for LinkedIn success.
Jim Carr: Yeah, he'd be happy to help you guys amp up your LinkedIn profiles.
Jason Zenger: Yeah, you can use LinkedIn to make a little bit of money-
Jim Carr: Reach out to them.
Jason Zenger: Because, if you're not making chips,
Jim Carr: You're not making money. Bam.
Jason Zenger: Bam.
Automated: Thanks for listening to the MakingChips podcast. Jim and Jason knew that the metalworking nation, the community of world class makers needed to commit to a new way of leading to stay ahead of the competition.
Automated: So, MakingChips was created to fill that void. To give you advice from other manufacturing leaders, who can push you to take action. Your manufacturing challenges have a solution.
Automated: Many of them are at makingchips.com
Jason Zenger: Yeah, so what's new in MakingChips?
Nick Goellner: That's the end of the weather segment, so we'll go ahead and talk about MakingChips.
Jim Carr: Yes. Thanking you, [Cheryl SCott 00:44:09].
Nick Goellner: Alright.